Fish in cycle question

[strangeworld2002]

Is this low ph going to affect my cycle though? I had to do a small water change 25% the other day as they were acting strange. The ph showed 7.5 then returned to 6 after 24 hours. Fish have been in for 3-4 weeks. Stability added daily and Ammonia staying at between 1 and 2 ppm, no sign of Nitrite. Using Prime to detoxify. Should I add crushed coral to the filter to get the PH up? I have Java Fern, Moss and Anubias in there.

 

[Byron]

You have raised several things. First to the cycle, you have plants growing and only three small guppies. The cycle will do its thing.

However, the pH is involved. A low pH will slow the cycling, but that is not the main thing here. With an acidic pH ammonia will basically be ammonium and for our purposes not a problem. If the pH remains above 7, the ammonia is primarily ammonia, toxic.

The fluctuation from 7.5 down to 6 in 24 hours suggests to me that the water folks are adding something to raise it. This will dissipate out (depending what it is) and the pH moves down to the actual pH for the source water. This is connected to the GH and KH, and other factors like CO2.

Prime should only be used for fresh water, it is a conditioner not a treatment.

Stability may do something, though I am not exactly sure what, since it does not contain nitrifying bacteria. A better product would be Tetra's SafeStart. Or Dr. Tim's but I would not advise using ammonia as you have fish present. The SafeeStart is better.

The nitrite not appearing is likely due to the plants using the ammonia/ammonium which does not produce nitrite, nor nitrate further along.

I have set up I don't know how many tanks over 30 years, and I have never cycled one of them. Ammonia and nitrite have been zero throughout, so far as I know--I am not going to test every day. Tanks are full of plants, especially floaters. I did this before I ever knew about plant "cycling," but it works.

Do not get pH up, this is only going to make things worse and harm the fish, even though they are guppies. Not kind to them. The pH will do what it does in relationship to the GH and KH. I would check into the water additive(s) so you know, and do smaller water changes if needed. Remember, with an acidic pH at 6 you are not going to have ammonia toxicity.

As for crushed coral, that is at least a safer option, but coral is not a good buffer. Dolomite would be better. But others can pursue this aspect.

 

[strangeworld2002]

Quick update on this.

Still no change, PH is still 6, it comes up to 7.6 after a water change but goes back to 6 after 24 hours. Ammonia is still being read on the API freshwater test kit at somewhere in the region of 2ppm, water change reduces this. No nitrites and nitrates at 5ppm but nitrates have shown since day one. Seachem Stability bottle is now empty doesn't seem to have done anything. Guppies are starting to show signs of stress now with a drop in appetite at times (being fed a small amount once a day). Not sure if the water change is hurting them or not with their being a big swing from 6 up to 7.6 every time I do it which is currently about 20-30% weekly.

There have been a few stock changes to bring you up to speed on:

16th Jan - 3 guppies added - two were very small and didn't survive there was no readings of anything so I assume they were unwell from the start
21st Jan - 3 more guppies, bringing the total to 4

Currently 4 guppies in the tank.

Do I need to do/change anything or just carry on what I'm doing.

 

[Byron]

Get some floating plants, cover the surface with them. They will deal with the ammonia aspect.

Have you checked with the water authority to see what they are adding? A pH fluctuation from 6 to 7.6 back and forth is very stressful and debilitating on fish. This has to be resolved.

 

[strangeworld2002]

Get some floating plants, cover the surface with them. They will deal with the ammonia aspect.

Have you checked with the water authority to see what they are adding? A pH fluctuation from 6 to 7.6 back and forth is very stressful and debilitating on fish. This has to be resolved.

I'm going to report it, tested the tap water after 24 hours and it was 6 on the api master test kit which does suggest it could be lower but for argument sake lets say its 6. Straight out of the tap it is much much higher so when I do a water change that must really hurt the fish. I'm convinced that I am going to have to use some kind of PH buffer long term living here to make sure that a) the tank will cycle and b) i don't stress the fish.

I really don't know what to do to be honest.

 

[Byron]

I'm going to report it, tested the tap water after 24 hours and it was 6 on the api master test kit which does suggest it could be lower but for argument sake lets say its 6. Straight out of the tap it is much much higher so when I do a water change that must really hurt the fish. I'm convinced that I am going to have to use some kind of PH buffer long term living here to make sure that a) the tank will cycle and b) i don't stress the fish.

I have lived with this since 2001. The change caused by the water authority was manageable because it was not much. But last year they increased the soda ash being added and it caused problems; tanks were around 6, and the tap water was in the high 8's. I did smaller volume water changes to keep the fluctuation only a few decimal points. I was looking into alternatives like RO, but health issues took matters in a different direction and I no longer have fish tanks.

You need to find out what they are adding. It has to be public by law. Check their website.

An established tank (a few months) will have a stable biological system that will sort of override the effect of the additive, depending what it is probably. That is partly why you see the pH lowering within a day or two. But the substance itself may be part of this too, if it is something like soda ash which does not last longer.

 

[strangeworld2002]

So I did more testing and this is what I found:

I left tap water out for 24 hours and tested it was 7.6 so did a high range and that said 7.4. I decided to do a 50% water change today and after that I checked the PH of the tank water and it was 6.4-6.6 despite being 6 previously.

Ammonia spiked to 4ppm and now 1ppm after the change, no nitrites and 4-5 weeks into the cycle. I know you said ammonia is less toxic in lower ph but should I do daily small water changes?

 

[Byron]

So I did more testing and this is what I found:

I left tap water out for 24 hours and tested it was 7.6 so did a high range and that said 7.4. I decided to do a 50% water change today and after that I checked the PH of the tank water and it was 6.4-6.6 despite being 6 previously.

Ammonia spiked to 4ppm and now 1ppm after the change, no nitrites and 4-5 weeks into the cycle. I know you said ammonia is less toxic in lower ph but should I do daily small water changes?

There is no issue at all if the pH shifts from 6 to 6.4 or 6.6 so if that remains the case you're OK. I earlier advised floating plants. I cannot over stress how important these are in situations like this one. To keep the biological and chemistry stable, do the regular weekly water change, or do two smaller a few days apart if the pH is significant.

 

[strangeworld2002]

There is no issue at all if the pH shifts from 6 to 6.4 or 6.6 so if that remains the case you're OK. I earlier advised floating plants. I cannot over stress how important these are in situations like this one. To keep the biological and chemistry stable, do the regular weekly water change, or do two smaller a few days apart if the pH is significant.

Thanks. What floating plants do you recommend? really not had much luck with this tank so far, one of my female guppies jumped out last night the glass top was on as well so she managed to get out of the smallest gap, I think the flow contributed to that as the pump is quite powerful and I can't turn it down - I have ordered another one.

I just have two guppies left, both seem active, well and eating after the last change so I'm not overly concerned should I bring this number back up do you think or just leave it now?

I know its just part and parcel of fish keeping and I'm trying to not get too disheartened but as this is my first venture back in after 10 years where I had very few issues its incredibly frustrating but I was dealing with bigger tanks and they weren't planted, maybe they are more forgiving.

 

[Essjay]

I've tried several floating plants over the years.
Salvinia, a small leaved plant, grew well for a couple of years then during a heatwave it all turned brown and died.
Water lettuce didn't work for me at all but other members have success with it.
Amazon frogbit grew like mad, the downside being the roots which left to themselves trailed on the bottom of the tank. I had to trim the roots every week, and throw away handfuls of plants on a regular basis as they threatened to climb out of the tank.
Water sprite also did well. Fairly long roots but not long enough to trail on the tank floor. The only thing I didn't like was the plants grew quite large and tangled with each other making it tricky to remove the old plants when they started to get leggy.
Red root floater. This is my favourite so far, small leaves and short roots like salvinia but so far it's not turned brown and died. I do have some water sprite in my main tank as well, but it doesn't do as well as when it was the only floater. I have red root floater in both tanks and I have to remove handfuls every week.

 

[strangeworld2002]

Thank you.

Tank PH is back down to 6 today.

 

[strangeworld2002]

Get some floating plants, cover the surface with them. They will deal with the ammonia aspect.

Have you checked with the water authority to see what they are adding? A pH fluctuation from 6 to 7.6 back and forth is very stressful and debilitating on fish. This has to be resolved.

Spoke to the water authority today and they told me that when the water for my area leaves the treatment center is it between 7 and 8 in PH. I asked them if they add anything to it to buffer it and they said they do not although it could fluctuate as it makes it way through their system etc.

Now here is the thing. Straight out of the tap it is between 7.4 and 7.6. Left on the side for 24 hours it is the same. I tested some water out of my Brita jug in the fridge which has a filter and that is 6 and of course we know that the PH in my tank is 6 after 24 hours. So that leaves a couple of things:

My water conditioner is Seachem Prime, it removes some heavy metals, could one of these metals being removed lower the PH?? (will test this tonight) Seachem say it has no affect on PH.

I have two small pieces of driftwood in the tank, if the buffering capability of the water is low then this could cause this swing but what is throwing me is that the PH in my Brita jug and the tank both read the same so now I'm thinking that it is something related to my filter and maybe this same thing is present in the Brita filter.

My aquarium filter has:

Aqua one Bionood Ceramic noodles
Eheim ehfisubstrat Pro
2x black sponges
1x blue sponge
2 cartridges (one side is filter floss the other side contains some activated charcoal)

 

[Essjay]

Do you know how hard your water is? Look on your water company's website, you need a number and the unit of measurement as there are several they could use. If the list "alkalinity", tell us that as well as it is what water companies call KH.
I'm wondering if you have very soft water with low KH which would allow something like tannins from the wood to lower the pH. KH buffers the water against changes in pH. When KH is low it can get used up leaving nothing to stop the pH falling.


Re the Brita jug - that lowers hardness by swapping the hardness minerals with hydrogen ions. pH is a measure of the amount of hydrogen ions, an upside down scale so the more there are, the lower the pH. That's why the Brita water has a pH of 6.0 (or below as 6.0 is usually the lowest our testers can read)

 

[strangeworld2002]

Do you know how hard your water is? Look on your water company's website, you need a number and the unit of measurement as there are several they could use. If the list "alkalinity", tell us that as well as it is what water companies call KH.
I'm wondering if you have very soft water with low KH which would allow something like tannins from the wood to lower the pH. KH buffers the water against changes in pH. When KH is low it can get used up leaving nothing to stop the pH falling.


Re the Brita jug - that lowers hardness by swapping the hardness minerals with hydrogen ions. pH is a measure of the amount of hydrogen ions, an upside down scale so the more there are, the lower the pH. That's why the Brita water has a pH of 6.0 (or below as 6.0 is usually the lowest our testers can read)

This is what it says:

Alkalinity as CaCO3

22.3

52.6

68.1

 

[Essjay]

I assume those numbers are lowest, mean and highest?

68 isn't too bad, it's the same as 3.8 dH. And 52.6 = 2.9 dH so not too bad either. But 22 is very low - 1.2 dH, which is low enough for a drop in pH to occur.
You could try using a piece of limestone rock or piece of coral as decor. Members who have done this should be able to help better.