Fish Grow To The Size Of The Tank?

[lil-x-me...x]

so stunting is real?

 

[Truck]

so stunting is real?

the fishes growth is slowed down, it has been recorded that once the fish has a bigger space, its growth resumes

read three fingers link

 

[lil-x-me...x]

ah right, yes

blonde moment! its all them eggs iv been eating today!

oo by the way happy easter!

 

[three-fingers]

Stunting is real. It's just not directly caused by the size of the tank, there's lots of variables.

It is bad for the fishes health, how bad it is depends on how bad the stunting is. Fish usually reach smaller sizes in the aquarium than they do in nature, this could be seen as stunting.

It's bad for the fishes health because if the fish is stunted badly - there is some underlying problem with it's environment (or diet) in the first place, and I believe remember reading in the TFF newsletter (wherever that went), that it is usually the liver of the fish that would suffer - which makes sense if you read Neale's post.

I'm going to say this too: stunting doesn't seem to be a very clear subject in the slightest.

Making statements like nearly every one of trucks post in this thread (that's not a dig at you truck, many people make such statements all the time) probably isnt a good idea, because it's not studied enough for all our aquarium species, and by making such statements you are generalising things that (aren't proven in studies to be true) way too much.

All I can see that should be taken away is the following:

Fish can stunt.
A fishes ability to stunt seems to depend on the species.
Stunting can happen due to more than one reason.
It's generally not good for the fishes health to stunt, but this would depend on the reason for stunting and to what extent.

 

[Truck]

andy understands it all, shame he doesnt post anymore

 

[three-fingers]

I doubt andy understands it all...and I think he would be the first to say that. It's just a subject in which the details aren't very clear, since it covers lots of situations.

Nobody understands it all, but people that have done studies or lots of reading will have some idea of the very wide general picture.

 

[Truck]

I doubt andy understands it all...and I think he would be the first to say that. It's just a subject in which the details aren't very clear, since it covers lots of situations.

Nobody understands it all, but people that have done studies or lots of reading will have some idea of the very wide general picture.

well by all i dont mean the hole thing of stunting, i mean what info is available.

its one of those subjects that is still muddy, and needs more research. but i remember andy stating in one post, that organs are not crushed.

 

[Bignose]

let's actually pull some info from a few actual scientific sources:

from "Development and aging of the liver and pancreas in the domestic carp, Cyprinus carpio: From embryogenesis to 15-year-old fish" by Fishelson L and Becker K in ENVIRONMENTAL BIOLOGY OF FISHES Vol 61 Issume (1) pages 85-97, 2001,

"In 15-year-old experimentally stunted fish (110-120 mm TL) the liver and pancreas resemble those of juvenile fish appearing much healthier than those of 8-10 year old large carp from commercial ponds. "

Sure, those are only a few organs and a general assumption about all the organs cannot be completely made completlely accurately, but the liver is a fairly sensiitve organ since it does a lot of the housekeeping of the fish's immune system.

Here is another from "Effect of stunting of juvenile bighead carp Aristichthys nobilis (Richardson) on compensatory growth and reproduction" by Santiago CB, Gonzal AC, Aralar EV, Arcilla RP in AQUACULTURE RESEARCH Vol 35 Issue (9) pages 836-841, JUL 23 2004:

"The carp stunted for 6, 12 and 18 months showed growth compensation, although their weights and lengths were slightly lower than those of the control fish. The body weight and length of fish stunted for 24 months were the lowest throughout the rearing period. Sexual maturation occurred only in the control fish and those stunted for 6 and 12 months. However, the onset of gonad maturity was delayed significantly (P<0.05) in males stunted for 12 months and in both groups of stunted female fish. "

Stunting delayed the development of the fish, but no mention of bulging organs or other deformities.
I believe that some of this comes from the knowledge that teleosts (bony fishes) are considered to have indeterminate growth, that is, they continue to grow over their entire lifespan. However, as some point in their lives, they devote some, and usually most of their resource intake into reproduction -- generating eggs and maturing their sexual organs. In almost every case, this results in a sigmoidal growth curve: slow at first as fry can only take in a certain amount of food, then rapid in their first year(s) as growth is dominant, then almost all resources get devoted to reproduction related activities.

Ultimately, why would nature allow the growth rates of the skeleton and the organs to be different?!?

Finally, every time I've seen one of these posts, I always ask: does anyone actually have a fish with bulging organs from stunting? I've never, ever seen a good example, and I've asked many, many times before. All I've ever seen is rumor, and "friend-of-a-friend" stories, and hearsay. Never anything actually factually presented. So, does anyone actually have a fish with bulging organs caused by stunting (and only stunting). You're probably going to have to perform a necropsy, and do it with the aid of a trained ichthyologist who will be able to identify whether an organ is larger than normal or not. I know it is a lot, but unless we have this kind of info, just the word of someone is insufficient.

 

[MHunt]

Fair enough, the scientific studies you mention do suggest that the fishes organs do grow in proportion to the fishes body so that is a fair point.

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

 

[Bignose]

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

I have never had a problem with this statement right here. But, the statement about the organs growing when the skeleton doesn't has always bugged me. It just isn't the way nature works.

And I've never liked that people use it as a scare tactic. The threat of increased disease and shortened lifespan should be enough to prevent anyone from stunting, there is no need to invoke made up stories that are extra-gruesome just to scare people into doing the right thing.

 

[love4aquatic]

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

I have never had a problem with this statement right here. But, the statement about the organs growing when the skeleton doesn't has always bugged me. It just isn't the way nature works.

And I've never liked that people use it as a scare tactic. The threat of increased disease and shortened lifespan should be enough to prevent anyone from stunting, there is no need to invoke made up stories that are extra-gruesome just to scare people into doing the right thing.

fish do get stunted nd from my experience it drasticaly shortens their life! i had a fancy goldfish in a bowl and it never grew at all! it only lived one year and died!!

oh and who is andy?

 

[MHunt]

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

I have never had a problem with this statement right here. But, the statement about the organs growing when the skeleton doesn't has always bugged me. It just isn't the way nature works.

And I've never liked that people use it as a scare tactic. The threat of increased disease and shortened lifespan should be enough to prevent anyone from stunting, there is no need to invoke made up stories that are extra-gruesome just to scare people into doing the right thing.

fish do get stunted nd from my experience it drasticaly shortens their life! i had a fancy goldfish in a bowl and it never grew at all! it only lived one year and died!!

oh and who is andy?

From the discussions above goldfish or members of the carp family do experience some stunting due to the hormones that they secrete into the water. I think more pertant to your case is the quality of the water, was it filtered? tank maintenance etc?

 

[love4aquatic]

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

I have never had a problem with this statement right here. But, the statement about the organs growing when the skeleton doesn't has always bugged me. It just isn't the way nature works.

And I've never liked that people use it as a scare tactic. The threat of increased disease and shortened lifespan should be enough to prevent anyone from stunting, there is no need to invoke made up stories that are extra-gruesome just to scare people into doing the right thing.

fish do get stunted nd from my experience it drasticaly shortens their life! i had a fancy goldfish in a bowl and it never grew at all! it only lived one year and died!!

oh and who is andy?

From the discussions above goldfish or members of the carp family do experience some stunting due to the hormones that they secrete into the water. I think more pertant to your case is the quality of the water, was it filtered? tank maintenance etc?

it was just a goldfish...in a bowl lol marbles on the bottom ( mother loves marbles, she lost hers! )
no filter or heater.

i know not to keep them like that now! that was like 4 years ago


but who is andy??

 

[Truck]

I think what is perhaps more important to the issue, is that fish kept in small conditions that may stunt their potential growth, have a shortened life span and are more suscceptible to illness because of the stunting?

I have never had a problem with this statement right here. But, the statement about the organs growing when the skeleton doesn't has always bugged me. It just isn't the way nature works.

And I've never liked that people use it as a scare tactic. The threat of increased disease and shortened lifespan should be enough to prevent anyone from stunting, there is no need to invoke made up stories that are extra-gruesome just to scare people into doing the right thing.

fish do get stunted nd from my experience it drasticaly shortens their life! i had a fancy goldfish in a bowl and it never grew at all! it only lived one year and died!!

oh and who is andy?

From the discussions above goldfish or members of the carp family do experience some stunting due to the hormones that they secrete into the water. I think more pertant to your case is the quality of the water, was it filtered? tank maintenance etc?

it was just a goldfish...in a bowl lol marbles on the bottom ( mother loves marbles, she lost hers! )
no filter or heater.

i know not to keep them like that now! that was like 4 years ago


but who is andy??

a member of the forum that left due to being banned for two years for flaming

 

[waderae]

Stunting is real. It's just not directly caused by the size of the tank, there's lots of variables.

It is bad for the fishes health, how bad it is depends on how bad the stunting is. Fish usually reach smaller sizes in the aquarium than they do in nature, this could be seen as stunting.

rather than the size of its environment, could the reason for this be that the fish in the wild are in more control over there own diet ? therefore are more likely to grow to a larger size?