Fish gasping when bogwood is in tank

[mark4785]

I bought a large 10kg piece of bogwood recently and placed it into my 300 litre Discus aquarium. Since placing it in there all of the fish have had a faster gill rate and the smaller Discus have been gasping at the surface. I responded by turning the c02 off, doing a 20% water change and turning on a power head to agitate the surface of the water. This helps for about 6-8 hours before their symptoms of gasping and fast gill rate return.

This has been happening since I placed the aforementioned bogwood into the aquarium which was clean and bought from a reputable fish store. So my question is this, what exactly is it about the bogwood that is causing the oxygen level to go down? I wont hide the fact that I’m quite angry that I paid £35 for the piece, not including transportation costs, for it to cause a huge headache. Nobody in their right mind would want this to happen to their pets, especially when the bogwood you are adding is from a pet store and meant for appropriate use in an aquarium.

I have since removed the bogwood and the gasping etc has stopped.


Aquarium water stats:

Temperature: 28.5 C
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

 

[OliveFish05]

Is bog wood the specific kind of wood? If not, do you know what kind of wood it is?

 

[PheonixKingZ]

Will you please upload a photo of the tank?

Usually gasping indicates not enough o2 (oxygen) in the water. Do you have a filter or pump running?

There have been issues like this in the past - some say it’s due to the pH dropping rapidly, but I don’t think that’s plausible.

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If it’s Malaysian driftwood, it may contain toxins. Lots of people have left super bad reviews online, after purchasing Malaysian driftwood, because they said it killed their fish.

I would keep it out of the tank for now.

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If you are really interested, I would out it in a bucket or container of some sort, wait 24 hours, then test the water for all parameters.

 

[mark4785]

Will you please upload a photo of the tank?

Usually gasping indicates not enough o2 (oxygen) in the water. Do you have a filter or pump running?

There have been issues like this in the past - some say it’s due to the pH dropping rapidly, but I don’t think that’s plausible.

—-

If it’s Malaysian driftwood, it may contain toxins. Lots of people have left super bad reviews online, after purchasing Malaysian driftwood, because they said it killed their fish.

I would keep it out of the tank for now.

—-

If you are really interested, I would out it in a bucket or container of some sort, wait 24 hours, then test the water for all parameters.

Yes there is an external filtration unit with pump in use. The aquarium has been in use with this for 6 years and there has been no slowing down of the pump so there is the same amount of water surface agitation bringing oxygen in.

It is a solid piece of wood and i know it can lower pH so I guess it is somewhat plausible that it could have caused a pH drop. I thought the only type of pH drop that mattered was a crash in which case all the fish would be dead.

I bought the wood from Wharf aquatics; i do not know where they source their wood. Should I enquire? One peculiar thing about it is the base is completely straight as though it has been chainsawed. The usual bogwood i source is not cut like this. Could this point to it being terrestrial?

 

[Byron]

No doubt that this is the wood so do not put it back in the tank. I will explain tomorrow, I am in a treatment now.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

I bought the wood from Wharf aquatics; i do not know where they source their wood. Should I enquire? One peculiar thing about it is the base is completely straight as though it has been chainsawed. The usual bogwood i source is not cut like this. Could this point to it being terrestrial?

I would ask, just to be sure.

It’s very possible you are getting leaking contaminates, because of the fact that it was sawed off.

All driftwood was once terrestrial and we are now using it in our aquariums. Some wood is safe, while others are toxic.

My guess is that this isn’t actually bogwood. Will you please upload a photo of it?

 

[Byron]

I have had two occasions when wood has killed fish in the tank. The latest was a few years ago when a branch of grapewood released a white film that turned out to be a toxic fungus. This I learned is common with this particular wood, but the wood has different names. The fish became lethargic, respirating very heavily, and fortunately I sensed the obvious problem and took the branch out and did an 80% water change. I lost no fish this time. I scrubbed the wood, placed it in a fishless tank, and after about four weeks seeing nothing, put it in another tank which did have fish...in a few days, fish began showing stress and I found some of the fungus appearing on the wood, so it came out and got tossed into the back garden. In the store, I happened to overhear a customer discussing much the same, but in his case he lost all his fish.

The earlier situation I had was different. I had several chunks of wood, all purchased in a fish store, in a 115g tank. After several months, one day I noticed the cories particularly were not very active, and respiration was quite rapid. I began searching for the cause of the issue which worsened, and finally had to consult a professional biologist at the Vancouver Aquarium, and with his assistance we traced the problem to a toxic substance leeching from one (or more) of the chunks of wood. Out came all the wood, and a major W/C clearly improved things, but within a week the fish began to slow down again, so on his advice a major cleaning was done--new filter media, thorough substrate vacuuming, 90% fresh water change. Some residue of the toxin was obviously on some or all of these items, but this cleaning did the trick, and the tank remained fine for several years after.

We do not know where this wood comes from, or what might be in it. Even reputable fish stores cannot know this. And it is impossible to somehow remove whatever is in the wood so it becomes safe, just toss it out.

 

[mark4785]

I have had two occasions when wood has killed fish in the tank. The latest was a few years ago when a branch of grapewood released a white film that turned out to be a toxic fungus. This I learned is common with this particular wood, but the wood has different names. The fish became lethargic, respirating very heavily, and fortunately I sensed the obvious problem and took the branch out and did an 80% water change. I lost no fish this time. I scrubbed the wood, placed it in a fishless tank, and after about four weeks seeing nothing, put it in another tank which did have fish...in a few days, fish began showing stress and I found some of the fungus appearing on the wood, so it came out and got tossed into the back garden. In the store, I happened to overhear a customer discussing much the same, but in his case he lost all his fish.

The earlier situation I had was different. I had several chunks of wood, all purchased in a fish store, in a 115g tank. After several months, one day I noticed the cories particularly were not very active, and respiration was quite rapid. I began searching for the cause of the issue which worsened, and finally had to consult a professional biologist at the Vancouver Aquarium, and with his assistance we traced the problem to a toxic substance leeching from one (or more) of the chunks of wood. Out came all the wood, and a major W/C clearly improved things, but within a week the fish began to slow down again, so on his advice a major cleaning was done--new filter media, thorough substrate vacuuming, 90% fresh water change. Some residue of the toxin was obviously on some or all of these items, but this cleaning did the trick, and the tank remained fine for several years after.

We do not know where this wood comes from, or what might be in it. Even reputable fish stores cannot know this. And it is impossible to somehow remove whatever is in the wood so it becomes safe, just toss it out.

It seems like certain woods can be sold at pet stores that directly contribute to fish death based on what you are saying. If you are also saying that reputable fish stores have no way of knowing if a piece of wood is toxic it seems to me very careless and almost spiteful to treat a customer with such disdain and that's without even discussing animal welfare.

I think for me, unless there is some way of knowing that a piece of wood is appropriate for a closed body of water then I think this is an item that I won't be using anymore alongside fish. Perhaps I could put new pieces of wood in a container with surface water agitation and test its oxygen content before and after placing it in?

Please see below a 4K video of the bogwood piece. I will not comment on its appearance until someone else has so it can be appraised properly:

 

[mark4785]

I have noticed that some of the smaller fish still have a faster respiratory rate (the smaller Discus and the Bolivian Ram). I am doing another water change now. I have noticed that the water is tinged brown from the removed piece of dogwood so can only presume that there is something else that is invisible residing in the water that is still having a negative effect.

 

[Byron]

If you are also saying that reputable fish stores have no way of knowing if a piece of wood is toxic it seems to me very careless and almost spiteful to treat a customer with such disdain and that's without even discussing animal welfare.

While I understand your thinking here, I would point out that no one can possibly know if a piece of wood has been in contact with some toxin unless it is analyzed by a scientific person who has studied toxins. Wood absorbs liquids, and any toxic substance in the liquid will get inside the wood, and could leech out over weeks and months when placed in an aquarium. There is no form of "cleaning" that acn deal adequately with this. This is also why collecting wood on one's own is so dangerous.

Now, there is another aspect, and that is the wood species. In hindsight, I believe the chunks of wood that caused me trouble the first time might have been a type of cedar. This was back in the early 1990's, and I have since learned through research that one never uses coniferous wood in an aquarium because of the toxic sap (it also rots faster being soft wood). One might wish that fish store owners/staff take some training in this and other aspects of fish biology, but very few do, which is why one can never rely on advice from these people unless you know their level of training/research/knowledge. Not always easy either.

Stores do sell the grapewood, which I believe may sometimes be termed spiderwood, the branchy pale blonde wood, and it is true that a lot of toxic fungus has been identified leeching from this particular wood. I will not buy it for that reason, I just can't tell; my one experience convinced me, especially after others on forums had similar experiences.

As for the wood in the video, it looks like a nice chunk but that doesn't mean it is safe. The species of tree might tell us it is safe or not from that point, but there is still no way of determining what may have been absorbed into this wood over time, and one day leech out.

 

[Byron]

I have noticed that some of the smaller fish still have a faster respiratory rate (the smaller Discus and the Bolivian Ram). I am doing another water change now. I have noticed that the water is tinged brown from the removed piece of dogwood so can only presume that there is something else that is invisible residing in the water that is still having a negative effect.

The brown may just be tannins which are harmless to fish. But that doesn't rule out something else still being in the tank that is not harmless. Keep doing water changes if respiration seems laboured; the sort of major cleaning I mentioned in my previous post may be advisable.

 

[mark4785]

The brown may just be tannins which are harmless to fish. But that doesn't rule out something else still being in the tank that is not harmless. Keep doing water changes if respiration seems laboured; the sort of major cleaning I mentioned in my previous post may be advisable.

I have done a large 80% water change and i noticed the Bolivian ram has a slower gill rate and its not opening its mouth (as though gasping) and it is looking for food more actively since the water change.

Also as I was filling the tank up I noticed that the Ram went onto its side to rub itself on the base two times so I think the incoming water probably dislodged some toxins its way. There are no dead spots or large visible debris accumulated in my aquarium so this would not be a source of any toxin; there is also no ammonia, nitrite or added chemicals. I think the source would have to be something invisbile and dissolved from the wood.

Anyway it looks like disaster has been averted!

 

[mark4785]

The brown may just be tannins which are harmless to fish.

I know the tannins are harmless. The point I was making was that if tannins have leeched out there are probably more dangerous things that have leeched out which are not visible.

 

[Byron]

I have done a large 80% water change and i noticed the Bolivian ram has a slower gill rate and its not opening its mouth (as though gasping) and it is looking for food more actively since the water change.

Also as I was filling the tank up I noticed that the Ram went onto its side to rub itself on the base two times so I think the incoming water probably dislodged some toxins its way. There are no dead spots or large visible debris accumulated in my aquarium so this would not be a source of any toxin; there is also no ammonia, nitrite or added chemicals. I think the source would have to be something invisbile and dissolved from the wood.

Anyway it looks like disaster has been averted!

You are on the right corrective track.

The rubbing of the Ram on the substrate is more likely ich than the toxin. The toxic substance is in the water, and gets into the fish's gills, causing the increased respiration as they fight for more oxygen. It is not likely to be external on the fish, though without knowing exactly what this was it may be possible.

There is division among hobbyists about what I am going to say next, but there are a lot who maintain that ich is always present in most of our tanks, just as so many pathogens and parasites live in the habitats of fish. The fish are able to deal with it, except when they become stressed. Some 90% of all fish disease is directly attributable to stress; the pathogen is present, but it is stress that triggers the outbreak. Stress from having to deal with something toxic in the water is considerable to the fish, and the chain of internal events this triggers might astound you.

 

[mark4785]

You are on the right corrective track.

The rubbing of the Ram on the substrate is more likely ich than the toxin. The toxic substance is in the water, and gets into the fish's gills, causing the increased respiration as they fight for more oxygen. It is not likely to be external on the fish, though without knowing exactly what this was it may be possible.

There is division among hobbyists about what I am going to say next, but there are a lot who maintain that ich is always present in most of our tanks, just as so many pathogens and parasites live in the habitats of fish. The fish are able to deal with it, except when they become stressed. Some 90% of all fish disease is directly attributable to stress; the pathogen is present, but it is stress that triggers the outbreak. Stress from having to deal with something toxic in the water is considerable to the fish, and the chain of internal events this triggers might astound you.

Im not too sure about whether Ich exists all the time. The most common thing I have experienced with sensitive fish like GBR's, Bolivians and Discus is that fast water movement that transports a toxin within it can cause them to scrape themselves off of surfaces, i.e. incoming water that disturbs substrate that has dead pockets of gas. As there are no dead pockets or a build of visible decay in the tank I can't say that anything visible irritated the Bolivian as I added in new water but there could be something dissolved that came out of the bogwood that was pushed its way. I always do my water changes in the same way and I've never seen the fish scrape in response to incoming water beforehand.

I do have a microscope and I could take a scrape of the fish to look for a parasite but that will just stress it. For the moment I'm just happy that the water changes have improved the situation.