Finally decided... your opinions please

[Shiverz]

I must admit I've not heard of using hydrogen peroxide. The usual recommendation is to use an acid such as vinegar. If that causes bubbles it means the rock is made of calcium carbonate which will slowly dissolve in the tank water raising the GH (hardness).

Got ya, thanks for explaining why it's no acceptable

Oops, my mind isn’t awake yet. My apologies. Yes, use vinegar. I used peroxide on some new plants yesterday and it just popped out of the old brain. Duh!

Lol, I thought I was going to play scientist

Bettas are like humans they all have different personalities

Very good point, I just hope my betta isn't like me in the morning pre-coffee.

 

[CassCats]

Plakats are betta splendens (domestic betta) so i don't suggest them.


You know... what about sparkling gourami? They're a relative of bettas. Very subtle but do pack a bit of a punch when they want to. Much smaller than bettas too.

These are my trio. 1 male 2 females. They're spawning nonstop right now so everyone is sorta beating the poop out of each other so the females look a bit rough... but definitely win for subtlety and fascination.

 

[PhantomCarp]

Very good point, I just hope my betta isn't like me in the morning pre-coffee.

I’m assuming that would be the worst possible outcome

 

[dmpfishlover]

Okay a couple of questions, I'm thinking a more natural rock for the hardscape, maybe some browns and greys, do I have to buy these or can I get them from a local river and give them a good soak and clean?
[/QUOTE]

I am not sure if anyone has addressed the addition of river rocks to your aquarium yet or not. To be honest I didn't read through the entire thread as it was fairly long, so if someone has already mentioned this, my apologies!

You should use caution when adding rocks that you have collected from the environment to your aquarium. When you purchase rocks from a Pet Store, you likely can be sure that they are safe, but when you add rocks that you have collected you have no way of knowing what kind of rocks they are. Some types of rocks (such as limestone and some granite) are calcareous (contains calcium as calcium carbonate) and are known for their ability to both harden the water and increase the pH. In fact, if someone wants to raise water pH in their aquarium, one method that can be used is to place crushed limestone, coral, oyster shell or any highly calcareous material in the filter. The calcium carbonate leaches into the water and alter the hardness (GH) and pH of the water.

That being said, it does not mean that you can't add rocks to your tank that you have collected from the environment. You will just need to test the rocks that you collect to determine if they contain calcium carbonate. Some people use Vinegar to test their rocks by adding several drops to the surface of the rocks. Vinegar is a weak acid and will react with calcium carbonate by fizzing. However, because vinegar is a weak acid, it only visibly reacts if the calcium carbonate concentration in the rock is high, so it is not always reliable in determining if a rock contains calcium carbonate. There is a better method for testing rocks that is very easy and you may already have what you need to perform the test. If you have API's Master Test Kit already, then you have the means to test the rocks you collect. Bottle #1 for Nitrates in the API Master Test Kit contains a stonger acid (I believe it is hydrochloric acid?) and will more reliably react with any calcium carbonate present in rocks. Just add several drops on the rock and watch for fizzing or bubbling. If you see bubbling or fizzing, do NOT use the rock, unless you want to raise the GH or pH of your tank water. If you do not observe any fizzing or bubbling, then the rock should be safe to add to your aquarium. Just make sure to wash and scrub it thoroughly after testing and before adding it to your aquarium.

I used this method myself, and it definitely works! Some of the rocks I collected reacted quite a bit when I added the drops from the Bottle #1 for Nitrates, so I did not use these rocks in my tank. Other rocks did not react at all, so these are the ones I currently have in my aquarium.

I hope this helps!

 

[Shiverz]

Plakats are betta splendens (domestic betta) so i don't suggest them.


You know... what about sparkling gourami? They're a relative of bettas. Very subtle but do pack a bit of a punch when they want to. Much smaller than bettas too.

These are my trio. 1 male 2 females. They're spawning nonstop right now so everyone is sorta beating the poop out of each other so the females look a bit rough... but definitely win for subtlety and fascination.

I was looking at these guys, but as stated before I'm going to do my best to avoid fun time with the fish, so I'd only get one. I thought I may as well go with a betta if It's going to be solo, seems as they like their own company. It is something I have been looking into though and is definitely my first fall back option.

I’m assuming that would be the worst possible outcome

They'd destroy my tank withing seconds lol.

I am not sure if anyone has addressed the addition of river rocks to your aquarium yet or not. To be honest I didn't read through the entire thread as it was fairly long, so if someone has already mentioned this, my apologies!

You should use caution when adding rocks that you have collected from the environment to your aquarium. When you purchase rocks from a Pet Store, you likely can be sure that they are safe, but when you add rocks that you have collected you have no way of knowing what kind of rocks they are. Some types of rocks (such as limestone and some granite) are calcareous (contains calcium as calcium carbonate) and are known for their ability to both harden the water and increase the pH. In fact, if someone wants to raise water pH in their aquarium, one method that can be used is to place crushed limestone, coral, oyster shell or any highly calcareous material in the filter. The calcium carbonate leaches into the water and alter the hardness (GH) and pH of the water.

That being said, it does not mean that you can't add rocks to your tank that you have collected from the environment. You will just need to test the rocks that you collect to determine if they contain calcium carbonate. Some people use Vinegar to test their rocks by adding several drops to the surface of the rocks. Vinegar is a weak acid and will react with calcium carbonate by fizzing. However, because vinegar is a weak acid, it only visibly reacts if the calcium carbonate concentration in the rock is high, so it is not always reliable in determining if a rock contains calcium carbonate. There is a better method for testing rocks that is very easy and you may already have what you need to perform the test. If you have API's Master Test Kit already, then you have the means to test the rocks you collect. Bottle #1 for Nitrates in the API Master Test Kit contains a stonger acid (I believe it is hydrochloric acid?) and will more reliably react with any calcium carbonate present in rocks. Just add several drops on the rock and watch for fizzing or bubbling. If you see bubbling or fizzing, do NOT use the rock, unless you want to raise the GH or pH of your tank water. If you do not observe any fizzing or bubbling, then the rock should be safe to add to your aquarium. Just make sure to wash and scrub it thoroughly after testing and before adding it to your aquarium.

I used this method myself, and it definitely works! Some of the rocks I collected reacted quite a bit when I added the drops from the Bottle #1 for Nitrates, so I did not use these rocks in my tank. Other rocks did not react at all, so these are the ones I currently have in my aquarium.

I hope this helps!

Aye we have gone over it all, but you added more information and different methods so I thank you very much for your insight. I don't have my test kit yet, waiting for my broadband engineer to get in contact so I know I can do some shopping and take a peek at the bits and bobs for my fish tank. I know my partner is excited to go for a walk (I'm quite the hermit, so when I go outside the partner is keen to go with me to see the spectacle). So I'll be grabbing them today. I'll test with vinegar, and then double check when I get my test kit.

 

[Shiverz]

I've also been given this tank, I've just washed the gravel thoroughly and set it all up, I'm just wondering what to do with it. I have a five gal for a medical ward/prison (if the need arises) also I'm not keen on snails and shrimp breed like rabbits and I'm trying to stay away from multiplying the masses. Maybe I could use it as an algae tank for the oto's? it's only a 2.5 gal.

 

[CassCats]

I've also been given this tank, I've just washed the gravel thoroughly and set it all up, I'm just wondering what to do with it. I have a five gal for a medical ward/prison (if the need arises) also I'm not keen on snails and shrimp breed like rabbits and I'm trying to stay away from multiplying the masses. Maybe I could use it as an algae tank for the oto's? it's only a 2.5 gal.View attachment 109533

id use it as an algae reserve and/or hospital tank as needed

 

[Lajos_Detari]

I didn't even know this was possible lol, makes sense in theory, but I've never tried it. Is this container you're using glass and has a lid?

You can use any transparent container.
I used transparent plastic cos they are easily available.
I think you can also use those 1.5liter water bottle. Just cut open the top part and leave it open.
But don't use soap to clean it.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

As some of you may know I've been pondering on what fish to get for my little 65 litre tank (17 gallon), I've found fish that I couldn't have and have been scratching my head about it all (I swear I've gone even more bald now). After all was said and done, I thought I'd go for simpler fish, ones that I think I'll have no problem handling (and that they'd get along).

Fish
Mahachaiensis Betta x 1 (He's so damn adorable)
Neon Tetra x 6 Ember Tetra x 6
Ottocinclus Vittatus x 6

Plants
Top layer - Frogbit
Lower layer - Anubias barteri, Java fern and cryptocorynes

Substrate
Black fine sand(?)

hardscape
Lava rocks(?) River rocks
Mopani Root.

Okay a couple of questions, I'm thinking a more natural rock for the hardscape, maybe some browns and greys, do I have to buy these or can I get them from a local river and give them a good soak and clean? (I'm quite frugal). Also, when it comes to adding ther fish, do I add a school at a time, and the betta last, or the opposite way round?

Don't use black sand cos it will give you the dirty look.
Use something light like brown, grey, yellow or a mixed colour.
Also, dont use white sand. It's too bright.

 

[Byron]

Just came to this thread, and after reading through six pages of posts I am not at all sure what is or isn't still under consideration. But a few observations.

First, none of us can be suggesting suitable fish without knowing the water parameters of your source water. A 17g tank with a 50cm length is a very small (to fish) tank, and this means likely wild caught species, which means rigid parameter requirements. And small (nano style) species, which are more susceptible to water issues because of their size, most of the time. So, can we have the GH and pH of your source (tap) water?

Second, leave otos unless you want only otos. This is a shoaling fish and while just three can work, it is taking up valuable real estate in so small a tank.

Betta mahachaiensis, as someone I think noted this is a water parameter issue, but something else here that I wanted to explain, concerning the tank dimensions on SF. The minimum sizes (dimensions usually more important than volume) are minimum for the subject fish only, unless otherwise stated; as soon as you intend other species in with the subject, the minimum tank may no longer be suited, again depending upon the species involved.

River rock is lovely in an aquarium. You can collect it from a water course, it is the smooth tumbled pebbles of varying sizes that occur in more flowing rivers/streams, and called river rock because the pieces have been tumbled over thousands of years to become rounded and smooth. Usually this rock will be granite and thus safe, but use the "acid" test. Vinegar is a very weak acid, but if it fizzes with vinegar it is certainly calcareous. The Regent #2 in the API nitrate test is a stronger acid. Someone posted a video the other day about collecting rocks and tests, I can't remember the acid he used but when used on the same rock as vinegar the acid bubbled up in a frenzy, whereas the vinegar did not. I buy my river rock from a landscape supply place, I select a 3-gallon pail from their bins and they charge me 75 cents for the pail full. Not very expensive. And collecting rocks from rivers is illegal in some jurisdictions. You want basically the same pattern/colour rocks to look natural.

Black sand is not always the best idea. Like someone else, I found it not as nice as my dark grey mix of play sand. Fish can react to black just as they can to white, though white is far worse for the fish.

 

[Shiverz]

Just came to this thread, and after reading through six pages of posts I am not at all sure what is or isn't still under consideration. But a few observations.

Betta and oto's are under consideration, after reviewing embers today and looking deeper, I noticed my PH is a little too high for them, so I think I'll take them off the list.

First, none of us can be suggesting suitable fish without knowing the water parameters of your source water. A 17g tank with a 50cm length is a very small (to fish) tank, and this means likely wild caught species, which means rigid parameter requirements. And small (nano style) species, which are more susceptible to water issues because of their size, most of the time. So, can we have the GH and pH of your source (tap) water?

My PH is 7.5~ I need to get a better testing kit, all I know is that it's somewhere between 7 and 8, it's closer to seven but for safety's sake I'm gauging the middle and will give you more info when I am able to obtain it. I do understand that this is on the higher end of the parameters needed for Otocinclus Macrospilus and a "typical" betta (said loosely, as I'm unsure on what type I want yet).

Second, leave otos unless you want only otos. This is a shoaling fish and while just three can work, it is taking up valuable real estate in so small a tank.

What would I replace them with? considering I don't want a snail or shrimp? bottom dwellers have really been a head scratcher for me (which I'm sure you know considering you tutoring me on hillside loaches). I looked on seriously fish but at the time I wasn't sure if the dimensions given were for a school/schoal or if it was individual. I ran this tank set up through aqadvisor first to look at bio load and the tank capacity, hearing many people say it normally understocks I was more than happy to use it, it didn't mention I was over stocked, is this a bad calculator site? (just for future reference so I know to avoid).

Betta mahachaiensis, as someone I think noted this is a water parameter issue, but something else here that I wanted to explain, concerning the tank dimensions on SF. The minimum sizes (dimensions usually more important than volume) are minimum for the subject fish only, unless otherwise stated; as soon as you intend other species in with the subject, the minimum tank may no longer be suited, again depending upon the species involved.

The dimension given for the Machaiensis was for a pair, so I halfed it... like a goon, I'm guessing this was a mistake? I'm glad you brought this up however, because this is something I never understood... does each dimension given mean I need that much space for just that one fish? because if so, I never realised how much of a tight budget I'm actually on (I knew it was small but, thought it was somewhat of a decent size to start with). Also I notice you said it depends on species, as a first time fish carer, how would I know which species would be able to share area's with others? Do I need knowledge and experience? or is there a little way to figure it all out?

River rock is lovely in an aquarium. You can collect it from a water course, it is the smooth tumbled pebbles of varying sizes that occur in more flowing rivers/streams, and called river rock because the pieces have been tumbled over thousands of years to become rounded and smooth. Usually this rock will be granite and thus safe, but use the "acid" test. Vinegar is a very weak acid, but if it fizzes with vinegar it is certainly calcareous. The Regent #2 in the API nitrate test is a stronger acid. Someone posted a video the other day about collecting rocks and tests, I can't remember the acid he used but when used on the same rock as vinegar the acid bubbled up in a frenzy, whereas the vinegar did not. I buy my river rock from a landscape supply place, I select a 3-gallon pail from their bins and they charge me 75 cents for the pail full. Not very expensive. And collecting rocks from rivers is illegal in some jurisdictions. You want basically the same pattern/colour rocks to look natural.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any river rock on my journey today, I came back with some nice looking rocks, currently boiling them in a pan, then I'll be testing for calcium once they're good and dry, I also made sure to find rocks with smooth edges (which was quite the challenge, I'm situated where rivers and streams start, so the flow isn't exactly rough to degrade those stones well).

Black sand is not always the best idea. Like someone else, I found it not as nice as my dark grey mix of play sand. Fish can react to black just as they can to white, though white is far worse for the fish.

This is good to know, so thank you, to both you and Lajos. Is fine gravel okay? that is if I have bottom dwellers?

 

[Byron]

My PH is 7.5~ I need to get a better testing kit, all I know is that it's somewhere between 7 and 8, it's closer to seven but for safety's sake I'm gauging the middle and will give you more info when I am able to obtain it. I do understand that this is on the higher end of the parameters needed for Otocinclus Macrospilus and a "typical" betta (said loosely, as I'm unsure on what type I want yet).

The GH (= hardness, which is the level of dissolved calcium and magnesium in water) is more crucial to fish. This you may be able to ascertain from your water authority, check their website or call them. @essjay knows much more about UK water than I do, she may be able to help too.

What would I replace them with? considering I don't want a snail or shrimp? bottom dwellers have really been a head scratcher for me (which I'm sure you know considering you tutoring me on hillside loaches). I looked on seriously fish but at the time I wasn't sure if the dimensions given were for a school/schoal or if it was individual. I ran this tank set up through aqadvisor first to look at bio load and the tank capacity, hearing many people say it normally understocks I was more than happy to use it, it didn't mention I was over stocked, is this a bad calculator site? (just for future reference so I know to avoid).

First, why do you want them? If you like the fish as a fish, that is one thing. If you think they may do this or that like eat algae, that is a very different thing and fish should never be acquired just for that sort of reason. There are snails, shrimp, and some fish that will graze biofilms, and provided there is not an algae "problem" this is all one may need...if you like the snails, shrimp or particular fish.

Aqadvisor is not a bad beginning, but there is so much to putting together a community tank that no program can possibly include all the variables/factors that must be considered.

The dimension given for the Machaiensis was for a pair, so I halfed it... like a goon, I'm guessing this was a mistake? I'm glad you brought this up however, because this is something I never understood... does each dimension given mean I need that much space for just that one fish? because if so, I never realised how much of a tight budget I'm actually on (I knew it was small but, thought it was somewhat of a decent size to start with). Also I notice you said it depends on species, as a first time fish carer, how would I know which species would be able to share area's with others? Do I need knowledge and experience? or is there a little way to figure it all out?

On SF, minimum taqnk sizes are for the number of the species being advised. So if the data for say rummynose tetra is saying minimum tank 36 inch/90cm length, that is minimum for a group of no fewer than ten which is the minimum number recommended. A few more won't affect this, but if you also intend for example discus in this tank, then the tank has to be much larger according to the discus requirement.

Research, research, and more research is the only way to know what species are compatible, and in what numbers they must be, and what parameters, etc, etc. Tank size, the aquascape, the substrate material, the parameters, the lighting, the filter flow, and finally plain compatibility all factor in.

This is good to know, so thank you, to both you and Lajos. Is fine gravel okay? that is if I have bottom dwellers?

No, but depends upon the species. Inert and smooth sand is without question the best substrate in any aquarium. Cories need this. You can also do a nice Central American aquascape with gravel, but you would not have cories or loaches over this.

 

[dmpfishlover]

The Regent #2 in the API nitrate test is a stronger acid.
[/QUOTE]

I think it is Reagent Bottle #1 (not #2) that contains the stronger acid HCl?

 

[Essjay]

From this thread https://www.fishforums.net/threads/hey-there.461290/

I have soft water 1.61 (not to sure about the 1.61 part, but the water is soft)

Where did you get this information from? If it was your water company, what unit did they give? It is unlikely to be ppm but it could be mg/l calcium carbonate or mg/l calcium (and I've even seen mg/l calcium oxide).

If it was not your water company can I ask you to look on their website for hardness. You do need a number - and the unit - though some water companies no longer give a number, just words which can be misleading.

 

[Shiverz]

The GH (= hardness, which is the level of dissolved calcium and magnesium in water) is more crucial to fish. This you may be able to ascertain from your water authority, check their website or call them. @essjay knows much more about UK water than I do, she may be able to help too.

Yeah I completely forgot about the GH didn't I, was too focused on the PH. The hardness Clarke is 1.61 which I do believe is the same thing as GH, I keep trying to confirm this but I get all confused. I do know my water provider does indeed say that the water is soft.

First, why do you want them? If you like the fish as a fish, that is one thing. If you think they may do this or that like eat algae, that is a very different thing and fish should never be acquired just for that sort of reason. There are snails, shrimp, and some fish that will graze biofilms, and provided there is not an algae "problem" this is all one may need...if you like the snails, shrimp or particular fish.

To be honest, I look at bottom dwellers before any other fish (you may think this is backwards) but to me, bottom dwellers are the most fascinating fish in the tank,. I like it when their sifting through the substrate looking for food, they way they suckle onto the side of the glass or rocks and just dangle there, when they play with each other or dart off kicking sand/substrate up into the water with their burst of speed. The way they hide in little nooks and crannies when it's nap-time. I find them fascinating, everytime I see a pleco I fall in love (don't worry I know they're way to big for my tank). The hillside loaches too, I just love them all lol.

Aqadvisor is not a bad beginning, but there is so much to putting together a community tank that no program can possibly include all the variables/factors that must be considered.

Right, so it's good to get a "general" idea, then seek out further information elsewhere?

On SF, minimum taqnk sizes are for the number of the species being advised. So if the data for say rummynose tetra is saying minimum tank 36 inch/90cm length, that is minimum for a group of no fewer than ten which is the minimum number recommended. A few more won't affect this, but if you also intend for example discus in this tank, then the tank has to be much larger according to the discus requirement.

Research, research, and more research is the only way to know what species are compatible, and in what numbers they must be, and what parameters, etc, etc. Tank size, the aquascape, the substrate material, the parameters, the lighting, the filter flow, and finally plain compatibility all factor in.

I'm trying lol. research is all I've been doing recently, and I think that is my problem, I confuse information with other pieces and get myself in a tizzy. The mahachaiensis is a perfect example, I looked at everything and then completely missed the text in black and white saying "brackish" lol. I just think for a new person, it's easily to get lost in, I keep noseying around the forum reading posts here and there just to get a little bit of information, because it can never hurt.

No, but depends upon the species. Inert and smooth sand is without question the best substrate in any aquarium. Cories need this. You can also do a nice Central American aquascape with gravel, but you would not have cories or loaches over this.

I think sand is better anyway, I was just wondering because I can only really find bright sand yet multiple greys on fine gravel, I'll keep looking though, I wont give up. I've probably missed some really obvious grey sand lol.