Fighting Bettas

[Haiku]

That makes sense Kage, on the surface, but selective breeding for certain behaviors DOES occur. How else can you explain in dogs, dogs bred with natural tendencies to herd, natural tendencies to retrieve, natural tendencies to guard, run, hunt. Terrier tenacity, golden gentleness, shepherd police and drug dogs. Those behaviors aren't all taught individually in each breed, they have been developed through selective breeding. I never taught my golden to retrieve, but he's always happiest with something in his mouth, he even goes to sleep that way . Admittedly every single one of these behaviors is also done by wolves, but not to the intensely specialized degree that the breeds developed for those behaviors do them.

I can't say that I know what bettas are like in the wild, I have virtually no education in that matter, but I DO think that traits can be selectively bred into a species or enhanced over a long period of time. A dog seems ultimate proof of that, considering all breeds genetically go back to a common wolf ancestry.

edit: We posted at the same time again RW

edit 2: I also should add I am enjoying, and learning from this conversation and the different viewpoints. I mean every reply, even if in disagreement, with the utmost respect for differing viewpoints.

 

[KageBunshin]

Ok Maybe I was wrong,

But Still Disagree with:

Their hyper-aggression isn't 'natural'... bears little resemblance to the instinctive territorial behaviours of wild species.

Wild Betta Spledens are not very much as agrresive as their plakat counterparts with maybe a slight difference.


BTW, This thread has not gone out of hand... I have seen threads go out of hand... and trust me, its ugly.

I appreciate everyone's respect and professionalism.

 

[VickiPS]

Heres an example:

Wrong! What on earth has that got to do with selective breeding? Back in high school, we all heard about the scientist who, when Darwin's work was still new, thought that by putting little turbans on the heads of turkey chicks he could breed a new strain of turban-wearing turkeys. I think my understanding of selective breeding and natural selection goes a little beyond that.

In the rice paddies of my home country, wild caught betta spledens are as aggressive, if not more, than your captive betta splendens.

I referred to 'fighting plakats', those strains bred specifically for fighting. They differ markedly from both true wild betta splendens and the ornamental strains, although admittedly the gene pool of wild splendens has been greatly affected by release of captive-bred fish back into nature.

If wild splendens were just as aggressive as these purpose-bred fighters, no-one would have bothered to attempt to 'improve' them through selective breeding in the first place, would they? Clearly, those who breed fighters believe that they can breed for aggression and temperament as well as physical characteristics. The plakatthai site discusses the differences in fighting strains not only in terms of body shape and toughness, but also in aggression and fighting style.

 

[Synirr]

RandomWiktor is right in regard to the difference between temperament and skill. Temperament is one of those tricky quantitative traits that is determined by many genes at many loci, as well as environmental influences. The point, though, is that temperament is in part heritable, which is why selective breeding has and effect on it
There's an interesting example of this involving an experiment to domesticate foxes. The traits selected for were entirely behavioral -- tamability and friendliness towards humans, for example -- but after only a few generations, the foxes began to develop physical changes as well; changes which, interestingly enough, made them resemble domestic dogs more than their wild counterparts.

Sorry. I went off on a bit of a tangent there because I'm fascinated by this kind of thing... makes me want to try to breed non-aggressive bettas

 

[RandomWiktor]

Oooh, I saw an interesting special on that before. It started as part of the fur industry, actually, to breed foxes that would be more docile for easier handling. However, they soon found that the allele that controls adrenaline, which has a strong effect on how the foxes behave towards humans (ie. fear agression), is somehow linked to the gene that effects physical traits. It really explains the rapid "evolution" of the dog, something which was a mystery for years.

 

[NinjaSmurf]

Yeah, didn't the foxes fur start getting black, white and silver in them?


And to the bettas, if they breed them too aggressive they probably wouldn't even be able to breed them at all, because they'd just tear into the females right? Kinda like a built in mother nature emergency switch... until you get some idiot who can do artificial insemination on betta eggs... That'll be the day I'll just have to sigh at human stupidity. Again.

 

[Dorkhedeos]

, or how Coke will dissolve a penny in 24 hours

that was on myth busters

 

[Synirr]

Oooh, I saw an interesting special on that before. It started as part of the fur industry, actually, to breed foxes that would be more docile for easier handling. However, they soon found that the allele that controls adrenaline, which has a strong effect on how the foxes behave towards humans (ie. fear agression), is somehow linked to the gene that effects physical traits. It really explains the rapid "evolution" of the dog, something which was a mystery for years.

It's interesting to me that in many species, the distribution of melanin in the skin and fur is often times the physical manifestation of growth pattern that can have much more wide-spread effects.

This is neither here nor there, but I just feel like sharing:
Here's an image showing the different rates at which pigments reach the skin in two types of rats, the hooded one usually being the more tame of the two.

Pigment cells aren't just found in the skin and hair follicles. They are also found in the central nervous system, including areas of the brain related to mood and response to stress.

Therefore, by selecting for docility in rats, humans select for changes in the biological systems that underlie behavior -- the hormonal and neurochemical systems. Changes in these systems have far-reaching effects.

In the case of the hooded mutation, selection for docility led to a change in developmental timing: a delay in migration of pigment cells. This delay changed the neural profile of the brain in areas related to mood and stress, and, incidentally, this delay caused a piebald coat.

Pigment cells also migrate to the inner ear and eye, and related neural crest cells migrate to the intestines. This is why there is often a relationship between blue eye color, odd-eyes, deafness, white coat or white blazes, and megacolon.