Fighting Bettas

[BettaMomma]

Those who DO fight are living their passion.

I hate to, but I have to disagree with you.

My passion would be ALSO to go out and kick the living snot out of every single damn person on this planet who mistreats ANY kind of animal because I would love nothing more than to do it.

My boyfriend is a police officer in a somewhat large city - 200,000+ population - they've broken up some pretty nasty dogfighting rings. You should see these dogs. Some of the dogs have their mouths taped shut and are put into the rings with dogs who are in "Training"... and their owners don't want the ones being trained to be too badly beaten up, so they don't let the other one fight back.

When they confiscate the dogs, the dogs just simply collapse and are devistated because of the complete torment and horror they just went through. And a lot of times, these dogs turn into vicious animals who have to be put to sleep because they have been trained to be vicious. Take Detroit, for instance... the dogfighting epidemic has gotten so completely out of hand that when any member of the ASPCA goes to a call to get a pit bull, they are under mandatory law to euthanize it, regardless of ANYTHING.

NOW..... there are people out there who claim that cocks and/or dogs are "natural fighters" and that fighting is in the genes, etc. BUT... NO ONE will ever convince me that ANY animal, including bettas, LIKES to fight and gets their rocks off in doing so.

On the note of culture - I think that is plain and simple b.s.
We've all seen the Middle Eastern cultures where they beat, torture, rape and kill women for simple things. Do we all agree then, that practice is okay, too - because it's their culture?

OH, and FYI - I contacted the Ontario, Canada ASPCA several months ago to see if they could/would do anything about a betta fighting ring that I discovered, and sure enough - they consider betta fighting interntional animal cruelty... so if Josh K. (name shortened to protect the guilty) in Ontario, you're out there - they're on your heels, buddy. They're currently investigating the case and intend to prosecute to the full extent of the law.

 

[Dorkhedeos]

only fighting i think is sorta funny is cats fighting at night, which is really more annoying than funny

 

[Synirr]

Yes, animals do kill conspecifics for prey, mates, territory, etc. but none that I know of kill one another just because that's "how they are."

You don't define killing for prey, mates, territory, etc as being "how they are"? Maybe what you mean is you don't know of a species that kills others for no apparent survival/reproductive-related reason?

BettaMomma: I do understand the differences between fighting animals and human boxers fighting, don't get me wrong... but in professional betta fighting, if a betta doesn't want to fight, it will attempt to avoid confrontation with the other betta in question and will thus be removed from the container because, obviously, it's going to lose anyway. Nobody wants to lose their prize betta because he's having a bad day.
Fighting bettas is exploitation, no doubt about it, but I'd say keeping them in cramped cups is far worse.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Fighting bettas is exploitation, no doubt about it, but I'd say keeping them in cramped cups is far worse.

Heh, you don't need to tell BettaMomma or half of the people here that; we're one big happy family of angry betta-activists. We disagree with the cramped conditions as well; heck all my boys are in 5 gallons, and if my apartment allowed larger tanks, they'd be in tens.

You don't define killing for prey, mates, territory, etc as being "how they are"? Maybe what you mean is you don't know of a species that kills others for no apparent survival/reproductive-related reason?

Yes, that is how I meant it; forgive me for my poor wording. Long day of arguing (lol).

edit: Wow, I can't believe I didn't notice your beautiful bettas before. ::looks at them all bubbly and adoring-like:: What gorgeous, healthy looking fish ^^

 

[Haiku]

Imagine everyone,if you will, you as a young child and you look forward to summers,going out and hunting a grasshopper who would arm wrestle with one of it's own kind. Let's pretend that the strongest hopper would break the leg of the other...maybe even snap it's neck. Crazy analogy,but work with me. Wouldn't you have played with them? It's really no different than catching a glowbug and smearing the lightening end all over your shirt,then dropping the corpse to die. I know 85% of us did that. Or catching ladybugs in a jar until they die of starvation or suffocate to death. We all did it. Grabbing a butterfly for our "collection" and sticking a pin through it..

I was an unusual kid I guess. I remember so very clearly the first awareness I had for other creatures. I was in pre-school, and some of the other kids were playing a game having to do with who could stomp the most ants on the sidewalk. I was watching, and I "joined in" and stepped on one. I lifted my foot, and was flooded with incredible remorse as I saw it's little crushed/broken body. There had been no reason to end its life, it had just been about its business, doing what ants do, and just like that I had snuffed out its life. I couldn't bear it. From that time on, I could derive no enjoyment out of anything being hurt or killed.

As I got older, I'd pick up bugs I saw in the school hallways and toss them out the window to prevent them from being smashed. I'd flick an earthworm drying out on the street or sidewalk back over into the dirt. At the city swimming pool, I'd scoop out drowning bees and wasps drawn to the water, but their wings got waterlogged and they couldn't take off. It made sense to me that they would not attack and sting a hand gently scooping them from a watery death, and they didn't. I particularly remember saving lots of bumblebees that way. I'd go to a sunny spot and watch them fan their wings till they dried, and then fly off, and I'd feel so rewarded. I used to get so upset when my mom smashed spiders she saw in the house, she finally started catching them in jars and releasing them outside to prevent me the upset and trauma (bless her heart).

This is not to say I'm an extremist in the sense that I refuse to eat meat or do things like kill the ticks on my dogs. I do eat meat and I can kill if it's of necessity to protect myself, the dogs, etc. But I never ENJOY it. And I won't kill or hurt something intentionally if it's not necessary. People going hunting and using their kills for food does not bother me, it feels like part of the natural order, but people hunting for trophies has always bothered me.

I guess all these experiences and feelings just make me unable to feel comfortable with anything of this nature, no matter how well cared for they are. I admit, it IS a relief to know that the 'responsible' breeders and fighters take excellent care of the fish and that they make sure they do not get too injured.. but I just don't think I could ever feel comfortable with it, and say that I'm ok with it. I'm not necessarily passing judgment on the people that do it, but I can't say the thought of it doesn't bother me.

Anyway.. if anyone has read this far, thanks for putting up with my rambling thoughts on things of this nature

 

[xXMrBonesXx]

i love how these all turn into 'look the bettas are treated way better then any of ours' sure they might be but look at that pic on the 1st page, that's what they get put into... why waste your time buffing them up to get annihilated by another?, and what happens if the wounds are untreatable? or if the betta becomes unsuitable to be fought? im sure the people dont have rooms set aside for beat up bettas that cant fight anymore and sure some peope pull out but there's probably a lot that dont so...

 

[Sorrell]

I agree with it under the circumstances it is done under. I've watched it peronally and it's beautiful and I would describe it as majestic and ritualistic. They are amazing and I couldn't appreciate at prior to seeing it.

My fish have sparred. When I have a reluctant male in a spawn, I'll drop my set aside plakat (for this purpose) in with the pair. All three are conditioned before the spawn and I moniter the entire process. They love it. LOVE IT!!

I'd never do this to a long finned fish, and I'd never do it with a fish who wasn't conditioned. They are never together for more then two minutes and are treated the second they're apart. These fish are in such good condition that all damage will be healed within 24 hours.

There is no comparison between bettas and any other domestic animal as far as violence and fighting. The instinct is undeniable, they have their names for a reason, I will never change my mind on this, and I never killed bugs or any creature as a child

 

[Synirr]

edit: Wow, I can't believe I didn't notice your beautiful bettas before. ::looks at them all bubbly and adoring-like:: What gorgeous, healthy looking fish ^^

Garsh, thank you )
I do my best to keep them happy and healthy

 

[NinjaSmurf]

For the roosters, I have this to say. I've kept chickens before. They weren't eating chickens, they weren't fighting chickens. We ate the eggs that they laid in the nest boxes and took care of the chicks from the eggs they hid under the house. We lived on three acres of land, plus about ten acres to one side of the house that was an empty wooded lot, and the other neighbors yard when they were away (which was often). They were free range, plus we fed them grain. The only thing they ever had to worry about were the occasional hawk from above or a dog that would slip off it's chain from down the road. And yet still the roosters would fight, sometimes badly, and we had to pen up more than a few hens because they tore their backs open in their frantic uges to mate. They killed one of our hens like this, and left us with many featherless hens. They did not have steel spurs, we even clipped their spurs, and it wasn't lack of territory or females that got them going. They were just naturally like this. We ended up selling them at a farmers auction because they became such a hassle (and anyone who tells you they only crow in the morning might add that means two or three in the morning, now add up about ten roosters at once crowing outside your window lol). One even decided that I looked like the best hen of the lot, and while it was funny for a little it's NOT funny having a rooster caught in your hair with it's spurs inches from your eyes while it's trying to grab your hair in its beak. Needless to say, we don't have chickens anymore, and perhaps I relish eating chicken a little bit more now...

Pitbulls and the like, on the other hand, I can not really put in the same catagory. Sorry, but I can't, and this is why. Pitbulls are a breed of dog. Breeds are man made, therefore this 'gameness' is unnatural. Bettas and roosters were not 'made' aggressive like these dogs were, and for the dogs sake I wish some people would get together and breed the dog aggression out of them before it does them in entirely.

As to the fighting bettas issue, I have problems with the way it is made into a sport. I have said before that I can agree with fighting bettas strictly for the 'see-who-turns-tail' and then stop the fight, but this is only for breeding purposes. It is what happens in the wild, that the strongest survive. He who gives in does not get that patch of water, does not a bubblenest make, and therefore does not get the ladies. He might get eaten tomorrow, and that's the end of that particular mix of genes. Females are probably much the same way, if they can't handle the sometimes rough treatment of the males then good-bye to that gene pool too. Of course, now we have all these bettas with flowing tails and such, and I don't believe in fighting them in this manner at all, since they are obviously less than natural bettas and have crossed over into the man made sort of affair. If you don't know what you are doing in this sort of respect then you shouldn't do it, but to go so far as to insult someone who has a possible interest as it seems the more professional breeder/fighters do, who aren't in it for the money, that seems just as wrong.

I do not support dog fighting, as it is NOT natural and it serves no purpose to the dogs, the breed, or the safety of the public other than to line someones pockets. Cockfighting is natural but they quite often fight to the death or damn close to it because they often don't want to give up, and this fighting is purely for show and money, not for any sort of strongest bird gets the hen sort of thing. I don't agree with any sort of fighting for money, not even for people, because people are greedy, and can make them do things one would hope most people not capable of doing to someone else for money. Money is not the root of all evil, but greed of money is.

 

[KageBunshin]

First of all, I think we should not compare betta fighting with dog fighting because they are two totally different subjects. Pit bull fighting is totally wrong because pit bulls are a bred specially for fighting from a semi peaceful original species. The original bettas splendens species is already adept for fighting by mother nature. Betta splenden's body structure (I am talking about plakats) is made up of hard scales of armor. They are endowed by nature with fighting characteristic. I will use the example of the mountain ram. Mountain Rams, butt their heads all the time... but they are endowed with a hard skull. Betta Splendens also do not have the capabilty to rip the other oponents head off or do SERIOUS damage. They have a balance between their offensive and defensive traits. On the other hand, Pit bulls are bred by humans to have RAZOR sharp teeth and one layer of skin. Those dogs were not bred by nature, they wre bred by humans into a gruesome monster. Although humans also bred the plakat, it still very closely resembles the wild type.

On the other hand the betta splendens sepcies have been born with a stimulis to fight. Evolution says that each creature has different triats, and stimuli that allow them to survive; natural selection for the survival of the fittest. This means that if a trait found undesirble in a species, it does not survive that long. For example, the dodo bird species, did not have desireble traits, therefore it was easy for the whole species to be wiped out. Bettas, even with their strange fighting stimuli, have thrived in the south-eastern ponds till now. I don't remeber betta splendens being on the endangered lists...

Bettas don't have much choice if you dump them together with another fish.

There have been experiements done. Im sure you heard it. Two bettas a placed in a lake and have all the waters to themselves... If they "didn't want to fight" One of them could of ran away and hide in some dense plants. But they chose to fight.

Also, Sorrell presents another good evidence or their love to fight from his technique.

I know exploiting one of mother natures trait may sound wrong... but what about the horse? Some Horses are being worked from sunup to sundown... they were bred to do this. Maybe they like it? maybe they dont? I guess it doesn't matter if they like it not does it? If you think they like it... then this can be comprable to fighting bettas. If you think they dont like it... then would it also be considered inhumane? Then why do millions of people still practice the beast of burden?

Again, I am not full on player-hating the "activists" and also not condoning fighting bettas for sport, but my argument is that bettas are given these instincts by mother nature.

In the end, this will always be a debated topic on many levels, culturally and ethically. Western Culture and Eastern Culture have clashed on many subjects... But please please please, dont think of us (eastern culture) as monsters or anything. I hope you get to see both sides of this dillema, because im sure that we will agree to disagree.

 

[wuvmybetta]

Imagine everyone,if you will, you as a young child and you look forward to summers,going out and hunting a grasshopper who would arm wrestle with one of it's own kind. Let's pretend that the strongest hopper would break the leg of the other...maybe even snap it's neck. Crazy analogy,but work with me. Wouldn't you have played with them? It's really no different than catching a glowbug and smearing the lightening end all over your shirt,then dropping the corpse to die. I know 85% of us did that. Or catching ladybugs in a jar until they die of starvation or suffocate to death. We all did it. Grabbing a butterfly for our "collection" and sticking a pin through it..

I came along and kicked the a##es of all the kids who did this stuff when I was little.

lol

This doesn't surprise me And I mean that in the nicest way. You too Haiku and others. But ,I was one of those kids. And to this day if an ant has the nerve to crawl across my counter,or a spider to jet across my living room floor (grrr,it's that time of year!)...I squish them. Sorry,you guys don't hunt me down now,k? )

I try to teach my daughter the value of life. I freak out if she jars,let's say,a butterfly. I insist it wants to be free and eventually she gives in or I let it go while she's asleep But, at this moment,there is a jar with about two dozen garden snails sitting on my kitchen table. And I don't seem to care One's life is no more valuable than the next. Right?

What I'm getting at is...what makes a bettas life more valuable than a minnows? I'm pretty certain those are sold for 10 cents a dozen all over America for use as live bait.Raised in filth and then purchased to sit in dirty buckets awaiting a hook...and then to be dangled until it's eaten. Or feeder guppies. Our culture is pretty harsh and cruel too. Do we only care for the well being of pretty things? I think so. We're a little bit shallow like that.

I tried to find the link to the Animal Planets Extreme fighters video,where the betta came in at #2,but the page seems to be down. It had harsh fighting scenes but also mentions the experiment where they put two in a lake and they immediately fought. I believe this. I would be very interested to crawl through rice paddies and hunt for bettas.That's one of my dream trips. I wonder how many you'd find within any short distance of each other. Or would you only find one every great while. Are they hard to find or do you see one every time you turn around? *dazes off into paddy dreams*

Anyway, as I've always felt...we have our own problems with animal cruelty to worry about. How's that go? Pull the log from our own eye before we point out the splinter in theirs,or something...

At least these fish are raised in the finest enviroment and hailed as worthy kings.

EDIT~

There have been experiements done. Im sure you heard it. Two bettas a placed in a lake and have all the waters to themselves... If they "didn't want to fight" One of them could of ran away and hide in some dense plants. But they chose to fight.

Whoops,didn't see that. Now I sound like I'm copyin' ya

 

[BettasRFriends]

Kage I totally agree with you on this subject. Fighting pit bulls and bettas are not the same thing. I've also heard about the two betta in the giant lake. It's their natural instinct to kill or be killed. I'm sure you've all heard how if one betta defeats another, the winner's line will dominate the loser's line forever.

 

[Haiku]

This doesn't surprise me And I mean that in the nicest way. You too Haiku and others. But ,I was one of those kids. And to this day if an ant has the nerve to crawl across my counter,or a spider to jet across my living room floor (grrr,it's that time of year!)...I squish them. Sorry,you guys don't hunt me down now,k? )

I do understand that, and it is how the majority of people are. I don't think any less of people who don't feel the same way I do on these things. I like being the person who will step over that ant instead of on it, but I won't persecute and condemn the person who steps on it . The only time I'd have a hard time not thinking poorly of someone was if they were sitting there laughing and relishing the torture of another creature. I have to admit that would be VERY hard for me to stand. I do not believe that is what is going on with the betta fighting, when it is done as described by people in this thread. The other type of person is the one that throws two vt's in a cup together in Wal-Mart. Those are the people I find it very hard not to judge. But more than likely, they are also people who weren't brought up to honor the sanctity of life too.

I do also think, from what I've learned to this point, that it is quite different from pit bull fighting, which I am against to the HIGHEST degree. The worst damage isn't even usually done in the fighting ring between pitbulls, it is done by the human monsters who throw in weak or dying or disabled dogs to be bait to their fighting dogs in training. It doesn't sound like that kind of thing is done with bettas. I'm sure there is plenty of private cruelty going on with them, but I'm guessing a good amount of it is happening here in the U.S. more than overseas.

 

[Raechal]

Eek! I didn't mean for this topic to get out of hand. Just wondering if it was legale and all that stuff.

 

[BettaMomma]

Anyway.. if anyone has read this far, thanks for putting up with my rambling thoughts on things of this nature

I read EVERY single word of what you wrote, and I think we must have been twins separated at birth.
That is just EXACTLY how I grew up - and I still do all of those things.