Fighting Bettas

[Raechal]

http/www.suthasinebetta.com/fighter/index.html

Do they actually sell these bettas to people who are fighting them? I'm sad now.

 

[wuvmybetta]

Everything I have to say can be found in this thread.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=47102&hl=
It's culture.
To start the topic off, if you disagree with the practice just say so. But refrain from insulting and making yourselves appear foolish

I've said it 100X before and I shall say it again...those fish live healthier lives than any of ours.

 

[RandomWiktor]

I would just like to point out that, after reading some of that post on the subject, I've heard the same propoganda from pit bull fighters who claim that the animals are conditioned like athletes, treated well up until the fight, are broken up when someone is really losing, etc. etc. and while it may be true for professional fighters, I should imagine that just like in the dog fighting and cock fighting communities, there is a huge bed of ametures who do not care for their animals properly and allow them to fight until death (if not during the fight, then after).
Yes, if you are a professional betta fighter, you will take darn good care of your fish. But consider the dangerous precedent suggesting that its ok to watch animals main each other for sport is. The majority of the people who fight animals are laypeople who heard about it and thought it would be "cool." Think of how many dog fighting incidents are perpetrated by mere children, then think of how many bettas you've seen in their cups together in stores. By saying that any animal fighting is ok under some conditions, we're essentially saying that all animal fighting is ok. Frankly, I don't care of those bettas are treated like the kings of the land, because a handfull of happy fought bettas is not worth a majority of injured, dying fought bettas. I also find it hard to swallow that it isn't counted as cruel that the animals are shredding one anothers fins and causing pain just because they're treated ok before and after. Many parents who beat their kids will take them to the hospital afterwords, but I don't think that makes what they did excuseable.
Also, I'm sorry, but I don't think "culture" is an ok excuse for any kind of cruelty, against animals or people. Period. I know we live in a society where we try to make everything grey and say pretty much anything is justifiable, but frankly, I don't agree; I still believe in basic morality, and if that makes me some kind of evil conservative than so be it.
I'm not saying this because I'm some American ethnocentrist; I don't agree with a huge number of practices that take place in our own culture. I know that many nations would look down at us, for example, for not stunning our poultry prior to slaughter, or for putting inmates to death, etc. etc. Yes, the cultural views about betta fighting differ, but it certainly doesn't make it any less cruel or any more acceptable...
I also noticed that in the post, someone was saying that bettas "love to fight" and thus, it wasn't really against their will, I suppose in an attempt to justify it to an extent. I would like to politely disagree. Bettas definately have gameness, and are enthusiastic fighters, but does that mean they enjoy pain? Much to the contrary, I would suggest that they have a powerful fighting instinct made even more prominent by years of breeding; essentially, they have become a slave to their instinct to fight and attack. Much like pit bulls bred from fighting lines will usually become dog-agressive regardless of their socialization, and roosters of any species will almost always fight with other roosters. I would also like to point out that animals, particularly primitive animals such as fish, do not have the capacity to consider the outcome of their actions. I sincerely doubt that a betta fish "loves to fight" so much that he would be willing to accept his death or severe injury just to battle, had he the capacity to reason. The overriding instinct of ANY species is to survive, which is why two males will fight so viciously with one another; they want to, and NEED to be the victor.
I don't know, I just don't think that using an animals instinct to fight as a justification or a reason for exploitation is acceptable.

I am going to politely step out following this post as I like most of the people on this board and don't want to get into a ranting, raving argument about it and end up having to leave.

 

[betta_CT]

omg i wanna shoot em look at dat

 

[VickiPS]

I realise this argument has been played out many times before, here and elsewhere, and people will end up agreeing to disagree.

I read the previous thread on this subject, and it was interesting to read the feedback from the fighting betta breeder. On the subject of breeding "fighting bettas", RandomWiktor's point is a very good one.

Much to the contrary, I would suggest that they have a powerful fighting instinct made even more prominent by years of breeding; essentially, they have become a slave to their instinct to fight and attack.

The plakat fighter bears as much resemblance to a true wild betta splendens as a HM does to a plakat. The so-called fighting instinct, or "loving to fight" (a tellingly anthropomorphic concept) has been exaggerated and distorted through generations of selective breeding. It can hardly be said to represent the fish's true nature, which is to defend territory and establish dominance to gain reproductive advantage. A point was made in the previous thread that mating was painful and terrifying for the female -- this may be true with breeding domestic bettas, whose instinctive breeding behaviours have been attenuated, but from what I know of my own and others' experiences, this isn't the case at all with breeding wild strains. (It's also interesting to note that there is a body of evidence to suggest that betta imbellis, the so-called 'peaceful betta', and wild betta splendens are a single species).

Also, I'm sorry, but I don't think "culture" is an ok excuse for any kind of cruelty, against animals or people. Period.

Quite. An act that is accepted by parts of the population within a particular culture isn't necessarily universally accepted by that culture. Nor is 'cultural' a synonym for 'ethical'. There are plenty of examples of culture-specific customs that are banned within their originating society as well as elsewhere eg. female genital mutilation, 'honour killings', droit de seigneur, eating ortolans etc etc. As a point of interest, all forms of animal fighting are illegal in Australia, as is advertising animals for sale for the purpose of fighting.

To me, the real issue with betta fighting is what it says about our fundamental ethical beliefs, and what kind of responsibility adult humans should have for recognising that just because we can do something that debases us, it doesn't mean we ought to do it.

 

[bkk_group]

(It's also interesting to note that there is a body of evidence to suggest that betta imbellis, the so-called 'peaceful betta', and wild betta splendens are a single species).

nonn from siamensis.org was kind enough to visit my forum to discuss this, here are his thoughts on dr. lucas's statement.

"I think crossbreeding is the old method of separating the species. There are some good and bad points in it. In a genus with a lot of species like Betta, eash species has varying degree of differences from each other. That is why we seperate them into complex like B. splendens's complex that include B. smaragdina, B. imbellis and B. sp. mahachai, and B. simplex's group that include B. picta, B. falx, etc. and B. coccina's group that include B. tussyae, B. persephone, B. bronorum, B. miniopinna, etc. Then, they can also be classified in term of their breeding method like the mouth brooder and bubble nester and those with some ability to do both.

Although, I have not try, I'm sure Betta species in the same complex will be able to cross breeding with one another in the same way B. splendens and B. imbellis do. The question is, if that really is the truth, do we dump them all into the same species? I don't think so. Each species morphologically differed enought for us to seperate them and they all breed true to their parents.

Recent DNA test showed that B. splendens and B. imbellis are a very closely related species but not to the point that they are the same species.

Location wise, we never found wild B. splendens and wild B. imbellis in the same habitat. The distribution do overlapped in some province of sourthern Thailand but they do not occur in the same habitat."

as well, sifu sim, another well known plakat breeder has this to say

"Lucas is totally wrong, he must have been confused by the erronous pictures of imbellis and splenden pictures posted on the net. some of the imbellis pictures are actually (imbellis x splendens) or outright splendens. One good example is the masked plakat, splenden don't have mask, to get the mask introduction of imbellis and smarg genes is absolutely necessary. The colouration of the caudal is also different between the splendens and imbellis and this is the strongest prove of purity of imbellis. (imbellis x splendens) x imbellis x imbellis x imbellis, will not get back the imbelis crescent colouration on its caudal. There are other glaring differences, the eye colour, shape of head from top view, alignment of mouth, shape of anal fin, the position of the colour skew on its body and the colour shine index. One must remember that wild caught imbellis does not automatically translates to purity considering the amount of splendens discarded into habitats, purposefully or otherwise."

i'm soo tired of discussing the ethics of fighting plakat that i won't. i can say with authority that, yes, i have indeed been to a thai fighting fish ring, and yes, i have indeed met and hung out with precha from plakatthai.com and asked his views on it, and finally witnessed a fight (wagered for money) between two plakat and while i have posted the details of this encounter on my own forum i'm not sure if this forum is the right place for it.

 

[GSD]

 

[KageBunshin]

Fighting betta has been in my family for ahwile now. My uncle back in Vietname is a Plakat breeder. My mom has just recently visited him last month and she told me stories about how much he dedicates himself to taking care of bettas. All my uncles have done this ever since they were boys in the vietnamese rice paddies. Although i'm the first betta keeper in my family not to fight them, I do find it as gruesome as people think. I have to admit, from a betta lover to another, that the picture posted is pretty disgusting, but they usually dont keep their bettas in that long. After the first 15-30 mins... You could tell which side the fight is going to be and therefore you forfeit. My Plakat, pepper, was sold to be a fighter. But I have not fought it, and will not, fight him because in my opinion, the original plakats are pretttier than any halfmoon or crowntail that I will ever get.

 

[wuvmybetta]

that the picture posted is pretty disgusting

At first glance it is horrid, but upon closer observation you can tell that the injured male is still full of fight,and there is no body damage. Just a few face blows. I'm not making excuses...I'm just saying that I don't think it's as bad as it looks.
He looks repairable.

You could tell which side the fight is going to be and therefore you forfeit.

Exactly.

 

[Synirr]

I'm going to have to agree with wuv on this one. The fish bred and raised by those who are really interested in fighting bettas are generally extremely well-kept and cared for. I don't necessarily condone the practice, but it is so deeply culturally imbedded that there's no way it will be phased out within any of our lifetimes. So long as the bettas are cared for and receive treatment after a fight (as most prize fighters do,) I'd say it's an "okay" practice. I think of it as a pair of boxers... once it's clear who won the match, they go their separate ways and get medical treatment for any injuries they received.
What I really hate are the idiots who fight pet shop veiltales for fun because they haven't done their research and have no idea what they're doing.

 

[wuvmybetta]

What I really hate are the idiots who fight pet shop veiltales for fun because they haven't done their research and have no idea what they're doing.

Oh no doubt! Now that's horrible and enough to make me cry.

I just feel that true fighters are not unwillingly put into the ring. The folks who do this regularly know a betta with fighter spirit when they see one. The fish who is skittish and would rather hide behind a plant would never,ever,ever be thrown into the ring. I'm certain of this. Those who DO fight are living their passion.
I would imagine that anybody who brought in a lightweight fish -who turned tail and ran- would pretty much be laughed out of the room. They take pride in having the toughest of all. Why waste time with a fish who doesn't have a desire to participate. It's not done.

 

[Synirr]

I know someone who once bought 6 male veiltales from Walmart and just threw them in a 10 gallon together to see if they'd fight. He was disappointed when none of them were killed. Needless to say, I gave him more than just one piece of my mind.

My point is that traditional plakat fighting is a far cry from what that idiot did. Maybe it's not something we should whole-heartedly condone, but I do think that it's worthy of respect to some degree. People who are seriously into the... sport?... really do care about their fish and I think there are much more serious betta mistreatment issues out there (bettas in cups, anyone?)

Edit: On another note, that site really makes me want to buy a Thai fighter... not to fight, mind you, just to admire and maybe even breed
There's something very alluring about them.

 

[wuvmybetta]

On another note, that site really makes me want to buy a Thai fighter... not to fight, mind you, just to admire and maybe even breed

Oh me too!! I've been dreaming of a pair of fighters for quite sometime now. Maybe someday. For now I'll stick with my candy coated plakats

Imagine everyone,if you will, you as a young child and you look forward to summers,going out and hunting a grasshopper who would arm wrestle with one of it's own kind. Let's pretend that the strongest hopper would break the leg of the other...maybe even snap it's neck. Crazy analogy,but work with me. Wouldn't you have played with them? It's really no different than catching a glowbug and smearing the lightening end all over your shirt,then dropping the corpse to die. I know 85% of us did that. Or catching ladybugs in a jar until they die of starvation or suffocate to death. We all did it. Grabbing a butterfly for our "collection" and sticking a pin through it..
If creek minnows fought the way bettas do,we would have done that too.

That's how I see it when we look at the folks who do this as sport overseas. If our fighting grasshoppers could be trained and then crowned as champions, or even triple our money as adults...we'd do it! A large percentage of us likely would anyway.And if this was part of our culture, and it was so widespread,as betta fighting is over there,and each and every one of us either had someone in our family who participated in such sports,or we just knew someone who did/does ,we'd see things differently. It's just different culture.

This could be the most ignorant thing I've ever said...OR I'm really on to something. I haven't decided.

 

[Dorkhedeos]

i dont see why you guys make such a big deal of it, they arent going to stop unless you gave them something better to do and quite alot of money. its their way of gambling and making some extra money, except this involves skill, not luck. if you tried to get them to stop, itll be like some guy walking up to your door and trying to change your religion while you are watching tv.

 

[KageBunshin]

I totally agree!! Remeber BKK's fish market post? After that I HAAAD to buy a plakat! Now Pepper (my plakat) gets the most attention from me. I can see my other fish getting jealous. Too bad they're scared of pepper becuase he is about twices as big and ferocious.