Female Dwarf gourami - illness or infection?

[Emma C]

I have a little Female dwarf gourami which developed a dark brown spot on one side after I’d had her for a couple of months. The other 4 fish of same breed looked fine and all of them continued to eat and swim well.
The pet store thought it might be an age spot as the spot hadn’t changed size or colour in over a fortnight .. however, a month later, the spot grew in size, as if 2 additional spots of equal size had joined the existing one.. it went from looking flat to raised and then more like a deepening wound that has also appeared on its other side, albeit smaller .. it no longer looked like a brown spot but a wound with the scab removed and more of an orange colour ..
I’ve since done the first round of treatment with some anti bacterial stuff recommended by the pet store and I have to wait a week now till I can go for round 2. The spot is looking mostly brown again but not much smaller .. does this mean that the anti bacterial solution is working and how long before I can expect my little fish to have fully recovered ?
(Note, water tests proved water was clean / no issues .. though just before I added the anti bacterial solution, one of my other fish that had otherwise been well, appeared to have lost her appetite a couple of days before, and then struggled with breathing the night before she died though I don’t think this was related to my fish with the spot I’m asking about as the other 3 fish are fine and they are all eating / swimming happily )

 

[CassCats]

Iridovirus, unfortunately dwarf gourami are prone to a certain strain of it often dubbed dwarf gourami disease, over 90% in the hobby have it either visibly or are carriers of it. There's no cure and most you are lucky to get even 1 year out of them.

Various symptoms of it. Lumps, growths, emaciation, discoloration, sudden death... all usually symptoms with this disease in dwarf gouramis.

Luckily it generally seems to be restricted to just dwarf gouramis.

 

[Colin_T]

Fish don't get age spots.

On one side it looks like a wound that has become infected by bacteria.
On the other side it looks a little raised and could be a tumour or growth of some sort.

I am pretty sure it's a bacterial infection that is eroding one side and raised/ inflamed on the other. This could be from a normal type of bacteria or something worse (Mycobacteria or Fish TB).

--------------------

The fish that stopped eating for two days, then breathed heavily the night before it died probably had an internal bacterial infection.

The fish involved (dwarf gouramis - Colisa lalius) are regularly infected with Fish TB (Mycobacteria species) and this could be the cause of both problems. The only real way of confirming this is to have the dead fish necropsied (animal autopsy) and swabs taken from the sick fish. This would be done by a fish vet and the swabs sent off for culturing and examination under a microscope and with a Ziehl Neelsen test. However, this will cost a lot of money and it could be a more common type of bacteria that is easier to treat.

I would probably continue with the medication you are currently using and hope it treats the sore on the current fish. I would also monitor all the fish for similar symptoms and if anymore stop eating, get fat overnight, do a stringy white poop, breathe heavily and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms, then get them tested for Mycobacteria.

In the mean time you should assume the worst and avoid getting aquarium water on your skin if you have any open wounds/ sore or cuts. Basically if you have any cuts or scratches, keep your hands out of the tank water. Mycobacteria can be transmitted to people and gets into open wounds where it causes a localised infection called a granuloma. These are really hard to treat and require a cocktail of antibiotics for an extended period of time. You should also wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank and feeding the fish.

If you have several aquariums, assume they are all infected and monitor them all for the symptoms above.

I'm hoping the fish is only infected by a common less harmful bacteria and not Mycobacteria but you should err on the side of caution with this.

The following links have more information about Fish TB and infections in people. It might stress you out or might help alleviate some fears. If you want to read them then please do and if you have any questions about Fish TB, just ask. This disease is really common but most people don't want to talk about it because it's incurable in fish.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

wow... these look incredible... trying to look beyond TB

so, with me giving up on rainbow fish, maybe Killi's ??? assume not in the same TB history tank... but these could certainly fulfill the color urge... um... maybe with a little more economical variety...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Colin_T]

The Gourami Iridovirus is a stress virus and is common in dwarf gouramis but is also found in all labyrinth fishes (Bettas & gouramis). The fact the fish was fine for a few months before it developed the sore would suggest it's unlikely to be the Iridovirus, which normally affects fish that are newly imported, not several months after they have been added to a home aquarium.

The Iridovirus weakens the immune system, affects the internal organs, and the fish gets infections from common bacteria, protozoa, viruses and fungus in the water. Fish normally die within a week of the virus activating and causing symptoms. There's no cure for the Gourami Iridovirus and infected fish die.

I don't think it is the Iridovirus but could be. Monitor the fish and see how things go over the next few weeks to months.

 

[Emma C]

Iridovirus, unfortunately dwarf gourami are prone to a certain strain of it often dubbed dwarf gourami disease, over 90% in the hobby have it either visibly or are carriers of it. There's no cure and most you are lucky to get even 1 year out of them.

Various symptoms of it. Lumps, growths, emaciation, discoloration, sudden death... all usually symptoms with this disease in dwarf gouramis.

Luckily it generally seems to be restricted to just dwarf gouramis.

Thank you Casscats for taking the time to have a look at my query. Much appreciated though don’t think it is iridovirus. The other gourami in the tank don’t appear to be displaying any signs of illness and I thought iridovirus was contagious. The single fish that died hadn’t had any prior symptoms til last week and the one with the current issue first developed the spot about 2.5 months ago with the recent appearance change occurring in the past fortnight … Also, I'm not sure that the gourami would have survived this long with iridovirus, plus, the fish with the growing wound like thing seems otherwise happy .. though I may be mistaken

 

[Emma C]

Fish don't get age spots.

On one side it looks like a wound that has become infected by bacteria.
On the other side it looks a little raised and could be a tumour or growth of some sort.

I am pretty sure it's a bacterial infection that is eroding one side and raised/ inflamed on the other. This could be from a normal type of bacteria or something worse (Mycobacteria or Fish TB).

--------------------

The fish that stopped eating for two days, then breathed heavily the night before it died probably had an internal bacterial infection.

The fish involved (dwarf gouramis - Colisa lalius) are regularly infected with Fish TB (Mycobacteria species) and this could be the cause of both problems. The only real way of confirming this is to have the dead fish necropsied (animal autopsy) and swabs taken from the sick fish. This would be done by a fish vet and the swabs sent off for culturing and examination under a microscope and with a Ziehl Neelsen test. However, this will cost a lot of money and it could be a more common type of bacteria that is easier to treat.

I would probably continue with the medication you are currently using and hope it treats the sore on the current fish. I would also monitor all the fish for similar symptoms and if anymore stop eating, get fat overnight, do a stringy white poop, breathe heavily and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms, then get them tested for Mycobacteria.

In the mean time you should assume the worst and avoid getting aquarium water on your skin if you have any open wounds/ sore or cuts. Basically if you have any cuts or scratches, keep your hands out of the tank water. Mycobacteria can be transmitted to people and gets into open wounds where it causes a localised infection called a granuloma. These are really hard to treat and require a cocktail of antibiotics for an extended period of time. You should also wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank and feeding the fish.

If you have several aquariums, assume they are all infected and monitor them all for the symptoms above.

I'm hoping the fish is only infected by a common less harmful bacteria and not Mycobacteria but you should err on the side of caution with this.

The following links have more information about Fish TB and infections in people. It might stress you out or might help alleviate some fears. If you want to read them then please do and if you have any questions about Fish TB, just ask. This disease is really common but most people don't want to talk about it because it's incurable in fish.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

wow... these look incredible... trying to look beyond TB

so, with me giving up on rainbow fish, maybe Killi's ??? assume not in the same TB history tank... but these could certainly fulfill the color urge... um... maybe with a little more economical variety...

www.fishforums.net

wow, Colin T, I can see why you would be called the Fish Guru, and I’m really hoping that the issue is a type of bacteria that will be eliminated with the anti-bacterial treatment so fingers crossed it works.
Thank you for the advice on preparing for the worst - it’s never easy having to think like that but I know it’s best to be prepared for outcome to occur favourably or in a negative direction..
Also, thank you for the advice on keeping myself protected. Oddly enough, before I’d seen your response, I had just been googling to see results for likelihood of humans getting ill from pet fish with common illnesses .. your advice is very much appreciated .

I did see the white stringy poop on at least one of the fish, briefly, a while back but, none of the fish have had that white stringy poop for a good few weeks now ..

I’ll have a read through the links you’ve sent so thank you for sharing.

I joined this forum less than 24 hours ago and I’m so pleased I did . Obviously the date of my gourami is yet to be seen but, I feel more confident in actions I can take to do the best I can given the situation..

 

[Colin_T]

Stringy white poop has 3 main causes, internal bacterial infection, internal protozoan infection, and intestinal worms. If the fish is eating normally and only doing stringy white poop occasionally, it's most likely intestinal worms. Internal protozoan and bacterial infections tend to kill the fish within a few days to 2 weeks so the fact the fish are still alive and only shown the white poop once would suggest worms.

Section 3 of the following link has information on deworming fish. Do not deworm the fish while you are treating the sores. Wait until that is delt with before adding any deworming medication.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Emma C]

Thank you for the advice on the de-worming process and the stringy white poop likely causes.

 

[Emma C]

My little fish (she’s called Tiny because she was initially the smallest of the 5), hasn’t been eating for a couple of days now since my last post .. she’s constantly moving her mouth, sometimes near the top of the tank but also along the bottom /middle whether she’s moving along or just in one spot .. the other three sometimes chase her as if they’re trying to bite the wounded looking spot… I’m currently in the week waiting period before I can go for round 2 of the anti bacterial solution but I’m worried that the wait will be too long or that the anti bacterial solution is not going to be sufficient

 

[Colin_T]

Unfortunately when fish stop eating and start breathing heavily/ rapidly, it's generally over and the fish normally dies within 24 hours of doing that.

I'm not sure what the medication is that requires a week between treatments but if you have a spare container, you could move her into it and treat her there. If it is going to help she needs it now, however she might be dead tomorrow. By treating her in a separate container you won't be exposing the other fishes to the medication and you might be able to save her. I wouldn't get my hopes up but you might save her.

Isolating her in another container will stop the other fish picking at her and if they are picking at the sore on her back, and it is Mycobacteria, they will pick it up (assuming they don't already have it).

If the fish dies I would take it to a fish vet and get it tested for TB to confirm one way or the other what the problem is. Fish vets can be expensive and it might cost a couple of hundred dollars, depending on the vet. If you have a Department of Agriculture nearby, they might have a Fish Health section and might be able to do the necropsy and testing for you. It's free in some places but not in others so you would have to call beforehand and find out. A university biology lab might also be able to do it for you.

 

[Emma C]

Thank you Colin. Alas, Tiny took her last breath this evening so I’ve taken her out of the tank.
Unfortunately, I’ve struggled to find any vets near me that would look at pet fish, hence the reason. I’ve been online looking for support.
I’m gutted that the assistant at the pet store had suggested Tiny had had an age spot as I will always wonder if I was too slow in taking action to get some medication for her instead of spending weeks wondering what the new spot on her skin was ..
Meanwhiile, I’ve done a partial water change of 30 per cent since I took Tiny out of the tank as the other 3 seem fine. However, I’m wondering if , firstly I need to do a further water change again, secondly if I need to add any more anti bacterial solution in a few days , and thirdly, do I just put the carbon filter back in as it was or do I need to clean it as it’s been out in the open for a week now after I’d put the meds in the tank ..
Also, is it likely that my 3 remaining fish have understood that they’ve lost 2 from the tank in the past week?

 

[Colin_T]

If you did a full treatment of medication and were waiting a week to add more, then don't bother adding more.

To remove medications from the water just do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week. You can clean the filter too. That will remove the medication and most of the disease organisms that are in there. You can add carbon after that if you like but it's not really necessary to have carbon in the filter. It's a sale gimmick from the manufacturers that want you to keep buying things (eg: replace the carbon every 2 weeks).
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine ebfore it's added to the aquarium.

If carbon has been removed from a filter and allowed to dry out, it should be thrown away because sometimes it can release stuff into the water after it has been wet and then dried.

Yes the other fish will know their companions have gone and it can mess up the pecking order in the tank but it can also calm things down. You had 5 dwarf gouramis together initially and that's not the best way to keep them because they are territorial and it's best to only have 1 pair (1 male & 1 female) per tank. Having several females and a male or a group of females isn't too much of an issue but 2 males usually fight and one dies.

Do not add any more fish to the tank because if it is Fish TB, any fish you add will catch it and die. Monitor the remaining fish and if they die from similar symptoms then wait until everything has died and then disinfect the tank and start again. If you can get the fish that died necropsied that would let you know exactly what is going on.

If it is TB, no treatment will help and there was nothing you could do. Even starting a treatment regime months ago wouldn't help if it's TB. There is simply no cure for it and all infected fish die from it.