Farming Bacteria
- Thread starter chrisbassist
- Start date
plecostomus-mad
Fish Addict
what else could be used as a filter medium?
plecostomus-mad
Fish Addict
i think i have a fish-less plan.....
fill my tank with floss,use a power head with a pipe attached that goes the full length of my tank with holes in multi directions...this way there will be water flow everywhere, add ammonia by the inlet of the power head to get even distribution.
or...
use it as a sump for my main tank.no ammonia needed as fish will take care of this. the only problem would be passing on parasites,diseases etc.BUT would be cheaper to do on a small scale and indeed a larger scale.
fill my tank with floss,use a power head with a pipe attached that goes the full length of my tank with holes in multi directions...this way there will be water flow everywhere, add ammonia by the inlet of the power head to get even distribution.
or...
use it as a sump for my main tank.no ammonia needed as fish will take care of this. the only problem would be passing on parasites,diseases etc.BUT would be cheaper to do on a small scale and indeed a larger scale.
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chrisbassist
Fish Addict
Using fish has the drawback of only producing enough bacteria to cope with that amount of fish.
The real test is sustaining a large enough amount to cope with several tanks. If you can do it you could always suggest to lfs chains and stuff that they do it. It'd be a win win for them. Something else to sell people, and they could get away with selling loads of fish straight away without people like us whining about them.
The real test is sustaining a large enough amount to cope with several tanks. If you can do it you could always suggest to lfs chains and stuff that they do it. It'd be a win win for them. Something else to sell people, and they could get away with selling loads of fish straight away without people like us whining about them.
I have toyed with this idea before. The thought I had was keeping a goodly amount of several types of media in larger canister filters, something that has several compartments that would hold a large amount of media. That could be dosed with ammonia on some type drip system so that it runs all day and keeps the bacteria level high, something to the estent of the 4 to 5 ppm per hour that had been mentioned earlier.
Obviously, depending on where the media was in the basket, the media nearest the intake should have more bacteria build up than that near the output (just a theory based on nothing in general). After receiving an order which would state the size tank and type filtration (as you would need to know the type media they needed), you would pull out the proper amount of media and stick it in a holding filter in another tank. Run that for about 2 days to make sure that it's processing 5+ppm per day and then ship. That way you could be fairly certain that the receiver was getting media with enough bacteria to handle their full fish load. They could easily add a little ammonia for a couple days just to make sure all is well but it would still be quicker than a fishless cycle from start (about a week compared to 3 to 6 weeks).
As great as it sounds to have that ability, I don't think it would ever get off the ground. As already mentioned, it would take a lot of tanks and a lot of filters so it would most likely be very difficult to make a profit at it. Otherwise, someone would have already given it a go.
Obviously, depending on where the media was in the basket, the media nearest the intake should have more bacteria build up than that near the output (just a theory based on nothing in general). After receiving an order which would state the size tank and type filtration (as you would need to know the type media they needed), you would pull out the proper amount of media and stick it in a holding filter in another tank. Run that for about 2 days to make sure that it's processing 5+ppm per day and then ship. That way you could be fairly certain that the receiver was getting media with enough bacteria to handle their full fish load. They could easily add a little ammonia for a couple days just to make sure all is well but it would still be quicker than a fishless cycle from start (about a week compared to 3 to 6 weeks).
As great as it sounds to have that ability, I don't think it would ever get off the ground. As already mentioned, it would take a lot of tanks and a lot of filters so it would most likely be very difficult to make a profit at it. Otherwise, someone would have already given it a go.
plecostomus-mad
Fish Addict
^^
the last statement about someone giving it ago etc is quite true....BUT..
large lfs companies can bulk order ammonia cheap, for them profit would almost certainly be there. although they dont need to actually do it.most sell fish to people at the same time as a new tank. so for them it wouldnt matter.....why make hard work for the same sales result could well be a way of there thinking.
i might go ahead and do it but with fish adding the ammonia. i have mts.lol i have a 50g that im fixing, a 35g in the shed,a 13g and im currently running a 48g. a 5ft tank is on order so thats another tank that will need mature filter media.
so as a personal stash of media its an
excellent idea,as far as a business, unless you do it on a big scale,i cant see a profit for the hobby man.
the last statement about someone giving it ago etc is quite true....BUT..
large lfs companies can bulk order ammonia cheap, for them profit would almost certainly be there. although they dont need to actually do it.most sell fish to people at the same time as a new tank. so for them it wouldnt matter.....why make hard work for the same sales result could well be a way of there thinking.
i might go ahead and do it but with fish adding the ammonia. i have mts.lol i have a 50g that im fixing, a 35g in the shed,a 13g and im currently running a 48g. a 5ft tank is on order so thats another tank that will need mature filter media.
so as a personal stash of media its an
excellent idea,as far as a business, unless you do it on a big scale,i cant see a profit for the hobby man.
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chrisbassist
Fish Addict
like i said, as far as business goes there would be a lot to work out, you'd need cheap ammonia, cheap media, etc... as well as the space to keep tanks and stuff.
but if it will work in theory, and even in practice, then there are companies out there which could offer it.
i my LFS had offered to sell me enough mature media to fill my filter for £30 when i got the tank, and told me it would mean I could stock my tank almost immediately, I would have happily paid it. would have been a bit moreprofit for them, and they probably would have also had more fish sales from me, since I would have got all my fish from them before I spotted the disaster that was the betta tanks...
but if it will work in theory, and even in practice, then there are companies out there which could offer it.
i my LFS had offered to sell me enough mature media to fill my filter for £30 when i got the tank, and told me it would mean I could stock my tank almost immediately, I would have happily paid it. would have been a bit moreprofit for them, and they probably would have also had more fish sales from me, since I would have got all my fish from them before I spotted the disaster that was the betta tanks...
Peggers
Fish Fanatic
To do commercially surely it would be done like insulin production, with a sterile fermentor containing just the species of bacteria you want and all the nutrients it requires allowing it to be grown optimally. Then to just add to a bottle with nutrients to be poured on to media. This is like cycle. The difficulty comes in transporting the live bacteria to the consumer without it dying off or getting contaminated. Which if you ship direct to the consumer is probably possible but expensive and lfs has no reason to recommend.
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chrisbassist
Fish Addict
or to give the LFS a reason, it could be done on site. actually using media, so it can be bagged up like a fish (with the right amount depending on your filter.
in my head I see a tank looking kinda like this:
divider down the middle, and 2 powerhead things to make current flow round properly. this could also be added to to drip feed ammonia at the correct level, with an attached canister holding the right ammonia so you can just set the rate at which it auto feeds the ammonia in, just needing occasional topping up.
in my head I see a tank looking kinda like this:
divider down the middle, and 2 powerhead things to make current flow round properly. this could also be added to to drip feed ammonia at the correct level, with an attached canister holding the right ammonia so you can just set the rate at which it auto feeds the ammonia in, just needing occasional topping up.
Let me interject a dose of reality here. You are talking about using a single tank to produce tons of mature media but you are missing what I think is a significant factor. When we dose to 5 ppm we are dosing based on some theoretical stocking level that we hope to make in that tank some day. All of the filter media in the flow path for that ammonia ends up sharing the biological load to a significant degree, although there will be some variation. If I run 10 filters on the tank to bring them along and keep treating the tank for a year to make sure all of my filters are fully mature, what I end up with is 10 filters that could each handle about 10% of the load at the theoretical stocking level for a tank that size. I do not end up with 10 filters that could each handle a full stocking on a tank that size. I think someone said it very early in this thread, it would take a lot of tank space to actually breed much mature media. If you do not fully mature the media, a know a year is excessive but didn't want to start arguments over 6 weeks vs 7 weeks, your 10% effective filter will lose way too much in shipping to give a worthwhile result at the other end for your customer. Where that leaves us is that a hobbyist can often provide a portion of their media fairly regularly to start a new system but cannot sell commercial quantities while maintaining ready to use filters. I always run at least one and often two extra filters on my larger tanks just in case I need one of them on another tank in an emergency. When I do that, I recognize that each filter is under powered for its new home so I watch the tanks involved for signs that they are not properly cycled. Even the main filter on a tank that has been supporting a spare, has less bacteria in it than its tank should have. A mini-cycle is very frequently the result when the filters are near the same size.
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chrisbassist
Fish Addict
I realise that in a normal situation you are only feeding that amount of bacteria, and adding more filters/media will only spread the same load...
but if you are getting to a point where 5ppm is fully processed within 12 hours, why not after that 12 hours add another 5ppm? surely that would be double to food and lead to double the bacteria, say it then starts clearing 5ppm in 6 hours? why can't you then top up to 5ppm every 6 hours?
i know having too much ammonia will lead to the wrong bacteria forming, but what about keeping it under 5ppm and adding ammonia more frequently? so you can feed more bacteria without it ever reaching 7ppm???
the point of this thread was to figure out whether this was possible. since we know higher levels of ammonia results in wrong bacteria, but I have read nor heard anything which said that having the ammonia constantly topped up to 5ppm would result in the same...
and since it is not something anyone would ever do in the process of a regular tank, I can't see why anyone WOULD have any experience of it, it would mean over stocking your tank by enormous amounts to recognise whether it would work, and even then only by examining the bacteria which has formed. and seeing what type of bacteria it is.
I'm not trying to be unrealistic, or cast doubt on your experience and knowledge (which is without doubt far greater than mine) just examine something which I have not seen any examination or experimentation of.
but if you are getting to a point where 5ppm is fully processed within 12 hours, why not after that 12 hours add another 5ppm? surely that would be double to food and lead to double the bacteria, say it then starts clearing 5ppm in 6 hours? why can't you then top up to 5ppm every 6 hours?
i know having too much ammonia will lead to the wrong bacteria forming, but what about keeping it under 5ppm and adding ammonia more frequently? so you can feed more bacteria without it ever reaching 7ppm???
the point of this thread was to figure out whether this was possible. since we know higher levels of ammonia results in wrong bacteria, but I have read nor heard anything which said that having the ammonia constantly topped up to 5ppm would result in the same...
and since it is not something anyone would ever do in the process of a regular tank, I can't see why anyone WOULD have any experience of it, it would mean over stocking your tank by enormous amounts to recognise whether it would work, and even then only by examining the bacteria which has formed. and seeing what type of bacteria it is.
I'm not trying to be unrealistic, or cast doubt on your experience and knowledge (which is without doubt far greater than mine) just examine something which I have not seen any examination or experimentation of.
In theory, for 10 times the number of filters running, you would need 10 times the amount of ammonia daily to be processed. This would give you 10 filters capable of processing 5ppm daily. This means 50 ppm added daily. You would have to bring it up to 5ppm every couple of hours.
Look at used infusion pumps on Ebay, surplus medical equipment. With one of these you could add ammonia constantly, keeping it at 5ppm, while slowly bringing it up to 50ppm processed daily.
Be aware that you are going to be creating a huge amount of nitrate in a short amount of time doing this, 10 times the amount of a really heavily stocked tank. This means large daily water changes. Nitrate in water is good fertilizer, plant a veggie garden, may as well use it.
Look at used infusion pumps on Ebay, surplus medical equipment. With one of these you could add ammonia constantly, keeping it at 5ppm, while slowly bringing it up to 50ppm processed daily.
Be aware that you are going to be creating a huge amount of nitrate in a short amount of time doing this, 10 times the amount of a really heavily stocked tank. This means large daily water changes. Nitrate in water is good fertilizer, plant a veggie garden, may as well use it.
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chrisbassist
Fish Addict
so it is possible then? it won't result in the wrong bacteria?
if i do it it'll be on a small scale to test it. then using my results, try and persuade LFS's to do it. gives them something to sell, and should also result in healthier fish.
if i do it it'll be on a small scale to test it. then using my results, try and persuade LFS's to do it. gives them something to sell, and should also result in healthier fish.
In theory. Might be worth a try on a smaller scale, a couple of filters at 10ppm divided in two daily doses of ammonia. Once you hit that point split them up, one daily dose, make sure each filter processes 5ppm daily. If that works double it again, working up to 40ppm divided into 4 doses daily. Run a test again on single filters, if I were doubling beyond this I would be looking at an infusion pump.
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