another beneficial bacteria question, to ponder...

[GaryE]

Test kits are cheap and available. If the question interests you, why not set up an experiment to find out?

I'm not a test kit user, but I respect the nitrogen cycle. The beneficial archaea and bacteria are what filter media is for, to me. I don't care about mechanical filtration. But like archaea and beneficial bacteria, I do care about flow and oxygen distribution. It's really hard to consider taking one aspect of filtration in isolation, when so much is going on with an established filter.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

UM- sorry dude, you were wrong when you said:

I think about a piranha tank without plants one inch of gravel and only bare decor. In a setup like that 99% of the cycle will be done by bacteria in the filter.

A good deal of the bacteria will be in the substrate. This is Dr. Timothy Hovanec's Quick Guide to Fishless Cycling with One & Only from the section on Tips and Troubleshooting:

Is your tank bare-bottom? – if your tank does not have substrate (gravel or crushed coral) on the bottom this is called a bare-bottom tank and they take longer to cycle because there is not very much substrate for the bacteria to adhere to. If you are setting-up a quarantine tank and do not want to use a traditional substrate consider adding some inert glass rock or marbles or some other non-calcium-based media to the tank bottom. This will help cycle the tank faster.

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library/quick-guide-to-fishless-cycling-with-one-and-only/

Think about the major sources of ammonia in a tank. Fish exhale it, so where ever they go in a tank they, are adding ammonia to the water. But uneaten food and fish poop both sink to the bottom. If there are live plants deal leaves etc. also sink. There they decompose and that makes ammonia. What self respecting nitrifying bacteria would not like to make its home near this source of food?

 

[MaloK]

UM- sorry dude, you were wrong when you said:


A good deal of the bacteria will be in the substrate. This is Dr. Timothy Hovanec's Quick Guide to Fishless Cycling with One & Only from the section on Tips and Troubleshooting:


https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library/quick-guide-to-fishless-cycling-with-one-and-only/

Think about the major sources of ammonia in a tank. Fish exhale it, so where ever they go in a tank they, are adding ammonia to the water. But uneaten food and fish poop both sink to the bottom. If there are live plants deal leaves etc. also sink. There they decompose and that makes ammonia. What self respecting nitrifying bacteria would not like to make its home near this source of food?

But still... I'm sure in the piranha setup. If you sanitize the filter. The tank will crash the cycle. No matter what.

If it wasn't the case there would be a lot less threads about peoples having problems after replacing filter cartridges.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I came to the same conclusion. What a filter is supposed to do, and what you're trying to accomplish is make a filter the most hospitable habitat for BB.
Create the best possible conditions with media, flow, and oxygen. Plants or not you can never have enough BB.

It's interesting that many posters mentioned flow and oxygen. Yet filters with RBC's (Rotating Biological Contactor) aka the "Bio Wheel" are much maligned. They have access to unlimited oxygen, versus a mulm filled sponge or ceramic media trapped in a canister. How much does oxygen affect bacterial waste consumption and reproduction? I don't have a study in front of me, but I'm sure it's a lot.
The Bio Wheel technology was adapted from municipal wastewater treatment, and ya' know the government never wastes money.

 

[seangee]

Plants or not you can never have enough BB.

Indeed you can't. The population will self regulate based on food availability so you can never have any more than enough, despite what the filter marketers would have you believe.

 

[MaloK]

Indeed you can't. The population will self regulate based on food availability so you can never have any more than enough, despite what the filter marketers would have you believe.

That's where it becomes touchy... Having a base population big enough to compensate.

Not enough and they could not regulate upward fast enough since they are multiplying by division. The most potent area of the tank will get the most enduring population. The place with the greater flow of oxygen and nitrogen... And there's nothing else than the filter.

There's a lots of "papers" out there... Sometimes they give me belly laugh, Vibrating pinky toe, and ears slapping in the face. I will still rely on my own experience. "Papers" have no idea what's going on here.

I always had trouble on this subject... Peoples generally don't understand even how these bacteria consumes nitrogen.

They are not wandering around looking for nitrogen particles... They are stuck on place and when an ammonia particles hit them it sticks like glue...

Where could this happen the most ? Where is there the most food for them ?

 

[Magnum Man]

I can't say this about all of my tanks, but do have a few, that retained the under gravel filter system, but also have other mechanical filtration... and I'm no bacteria prophet, but I have never run much over an inch of substrate, because, the thought of anaerobic areas growing the wrong bacteria in the substrate has always scared me...

 

[MaloK]

I can't say this about all of my tanks, but do have a few, that retained the under gravel filter system, but also have other mechanical filtration... and I'm no bacteria prophet, but I have never run much over an inch of substrate, because, the thought of anaerobic areas growing the wrong bacteria in the substrate has always scared me...

My two latest setups have a partial 1/2 inch some part 0.

I added plant substrate only where needed. And try to use some sorts of pots to be able to dismantle on demand.

I went too thick when restarting and providence smashed the first tank, so I could really remember that smell... Witness of what was going on... It now has 1/2 too and doing great. Running clean 8 months now. No brown spots.

Two more thick tanks to go and they look awful.. Both of them.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Indeed you can't. The population will self regulate based on food availability so you can never have any more than enough, despite what the filter marketers would have you believe.

Some will tell you that bacteria keep reproducing albeit at a reduced rate. So the only limitations are surface area, oxygen, and food.

 

[MaloK]

Some will tell you that bacteria keep reproducing albeit at a reduced rate. So the only limitations are surface area, oxygen, and food.

And the speed it is provided to their mouth.

 

[MaloK]

More I'm replying, more I can bring new arguments that your filter is holding a lot more than it seems in any cases ( nitrogen only related ). To a ridiculous exempt.

Many "others" filter related bacteria an critters are actively producing ammonia inside it and immediately contributes to farming them on contact... They absorb nutrients like living carbon.

Where in any aquarium substrate this could happen faster than in a filter.

At some point it becomes the nutrient straining point.

 

[AJ356]

UM- sorry dude, you were wrong when you said:


A good deal of the bacteria will be in the substrate. This is Dr. Timothy Hovanec's Quick Guide to Fishless Cycling with One & Only from the section on Tips and Troubleshooting:


https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library/quick-guide-to-fishless-cycling-with-one-and-only/

Think about the major sources of ammonia in a tank. Fish exhale it, so where ever they go in a tank they, are adding ammonia to the water. But uneaten food and fish poop both sink to the bottom. If there are live plants deal leaves etc. also sink. There they decompose and that makes ammonia. What self respecting nitrifying bacteria would not like to make its home near this source of food?

This talk of beneficial bacteria in the substrate.

There might well be.... but I promise you, it is absolutely not relevant if your filter stops working or you change all your mature filter media for brand new. You can have substrate that is 50 years old, I bet you if you turn your filter off for a day, and maybe just add an air stone, you will see how useful that bacteria in the substrate is in keeping your ammonia and nitrite down. It does Nothing.

If you filter packs up, or you change the media for brand new, you might as well have a bare bottom tank, because all the "mature" gravel in the world, won't do a thing to help your ammonia and nitrite problem.

Of course, if you got plants, that's different. The plants might save you, the substrate will not.

This includes all the so called BB on the glass or rocks. Won't count for ****.

I'm giving you over 10 years experience of cycling tanks and testing like crazy.

 

[MaloK]

100%

but a working filter supports lots more.

 

[Ram419]

This talk of beneficial bacteria in the substrate.

There might well be.... but I promise you, it is absolutely not relevant if your filter stops working or you change all your mature filter media for brand new. You can have substrate that is 50 years old, I bet you if you turn your filter off for a day, and maybe just add an air stone, you will see how useful that bacteria in the substrate is in keeping your ammonia and nitrite down. It does Nothing.

If you filter packs up, or you change the media for brand new, you might as well have a bare bottom tank, because all the "mature" gravel in the world, won't do a thing to help your ammonia and nitrite problem.

Of course, if you got plants, that's different. The plants might save you, the substrate will not.

This includes all the so called BB on the glass or rocks. Won't count for ****.

I'm giving you over 10 years experience of cycling tanks and testing like crazy.

Agreed on the plants. I've got a 40 gal pond in the back yard, I have a small foam air filter on it but also a very large plant growing out of it. Before I got that plant there was nitrate build-up. After, I haven't seen any nitrates since it's been established. I use the foam air filter from the pond to help cycle new tanks and it works like a charm. When I do use the foam filter from the pond I put a new one in it's place and there's never a build up of ammonia/nitrites/nitrates. They stay at zero all the time.

 

[Magnum Man]

I would guess water movement over the surface of the substrate can increase the ammonia consumption... so as little as a wave maker could make a big difference???