Extremely Slow Cycle Please Help

[rebrn]

Reading through what you have done it sounds as though you have done everything right. I don't know if the higher concentration of flouride would effect the cycling process, perhaps the more experienced people would know better then I do. The only thing I can think of is that there is something in your water that is not allowing the bacteria to grow although I have no idea what that would be.

Good Luck

 

[RookieAqua]

That is exactly what I was thinking, but I am at a loss as to what it could be. My two neighbours are using tap water too, all from the same source, and they don't seem to have these problems. I am not sure if it is the water, or if I am doing something wrong. I have the filters running, heaters on, and airstones in both tanks, I really don't know what else to do. This is the seconde mature media donation I have had (mind this time the amount was much larger), and at least it worked this time, but now with it having abruptly stopped, I don't know what else it could be. I removed all my decorations, including artificial plants so I don't think it could be from anything being in the tank, unless it is my gravel substrate, but I bought aquarium gravel so I don't see how that would be a problem. I just don't know what else to do. I am at the 2 month mark with the 5 gallon, and at the 1.5 month mark with the 12 gallon ... I am just becoming so frustrated with this.

Thanks

 

[rebrn]

I don't think you did anything wrong, at least not that I can tell by your description of what you have done. I doubt it is the aquarium gravel you used, it is made for aquariums so I can't see how that would be the issue. I think it is probably something to do with your water, I just really don't know what that would be.

 

[RookieAqua]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone else has any ideas regarding my stopped cycle. Just to clarify, as I was asked this by one of my neighbours, I did not wash or rinse the donated media prior to adding to the tank. I was tempted as the sponges were fairly dirty, however, as they did not impede the flow of the filter I decided it would be better not to rinse them out, didn't want to risk loosing any bacteria.

My water stats as of today are:

ammonia 2
nitrite 5+ (turns purple before I can get the cap on to shake up)
nitrate 80+ (I am almost certain it is up at the 160 mark but I find it difficult to differentiate between the red hues on my card)
pH 7.2 (5 gallon) and 7.4 (12 gallon)

KH and GH I had tested again, my neighbour did it as I don't have those tests in my kit. He told me the 12 gallon was KH 8 and GH 3, 5 gallon KH 8 and GH 3. I had this tested about a month or so ago and I believe those were the same numbers ( or close to it, I left my cycle journal at my neighbours and he is out) so not much change.

Those results have been the same now for 4 days, since the cycle halted. I am fairly certain that there is nothing coming from the pipes themselves, as this is a brand new home (roughly 10 months old) in a brand new complex, so new plumbing, new taps, and I am fairly certain, brand new or close to new street plumbing (there was nothing on this land prior to building, just a large empty field, not even trees just grass).

The only oddity in my water that I am aware of is the higher then provincial average of fluoride. I have tried to research the effects of fluoride on the cycle process, but I have been unable to find any information regarding this. I am really not even sure if this is the issue or not as my neighbours (one lives directly across the street and the other 2 houses down to the right) have tanks and have had them running using tap water for about a year when they moved in. The only difference is there tanks were already established (over 5 years at least) when the moved into the neighbourhood, so I am not sure if that is why they are not having the problem I am having. Both of them, combined fish knowledge of 25+ years, are completely stumped. The guy at the small public aquarium, where I got the donated media, is also stumped, he has no idea why it would have stopped after having progressed as much as it did.

I am sure it is something I am doing wrong, despite people telling me otherwise, or that it has something to do with the water because it has happened in both my tanks.

I know this is a long winded post, and I apologize for that, it is just that I am very flustered with the whole thing and am really desperate for some advise.

Thank you all for the help you have already given me, and I hope you have patience enough to give me a little more.

 

[rebrn]

Just out of you confirmed the expiration dates of your kit? I know you said you verifed the dates in your first post, but have they expired since the cycle halted? I am sure this is not it as, I believe, you are more likely to get a false negative with an expired kit rather then a false positive. But I suppose anything is possible.

 

[OldMan47]

I have been struggling with this one because it seems so simple on the surface. One new question occurs to me and it is not a place that I like to go. Were these both new tanks? The reason I ask is if you got them used from someone who decided to refresh the seals on the silicone, they might have used kitchen type silicone which would contain a mildewcide. If that is the case, the sealant might be killing the bacteria off, as it should.

 

[RookieAqua]

To Rebrn: Yes the kits are still in date, even called API to confirm I was calculating the dates correctly. All regeants were manufactured in 2009. So yep still good there.

To OldMan47: Both tanks are new, including the filters, heaters, lighting hoods etc. All new. The smaller tank was purchased from a large pet store chain in Canada. The larger was purchased from a US on-line store (couldn't find it in Canada). Both tank kits were brand new.

I have also done some more research on flouride and the nitrogen cycle, still have not come up with anything. However, I did find some articles that say excess flouride in the water has been known to cause health problems. The unhealthy range is 5ppm - 7ppm depending on which research paper you read. Per the water company my flouride is at 3-4pppm, but now I am worried that this could be toxic to the fish, I mean if 5ppm causes health problems in people, what is 3-4ppm going to do to the fish? I know jumping ahead, but do you suppose that level of flouride will be toxic to the fish, if and when I ever get these tanks cycled.

My husband and I have been toying with the idea of getting an RO system installed at the house. One of the ones that is installed at the main water line to the house, so that the entire house in on RO. But they are quite expensive, even just one for the kitchen is quite expensive. But if it turns out to be something in the water causing my problems, that would just be one more "pro" check for converting to RO.

I thought fish keeping was suppose to be relaxing, I have done nothing but scratch my head and stress for going on 3 months now
But I do feel better posting about it ... my little bit of cheap therapy

 

[RookieAqua]

Two thoughts I just had, not sure if this will help but ...

1. I did not clean the new tanks when I got them, I just rinsed them out with dechlorinated water. I did not use bleach, soap, vinegar or any type of cleaning solution, just water to rinse.
2. I live near a nuclear power plant, which has waste "heavy water". I think it is H30 or D20, can't remember the chemical symbol for it. But I did confirm that it has nothing to do with the city water, and that it in no way enters the drinking water ... but who knows they could just be telling me that.

 

[OldMan47]

D2O is not a problem unless it is present in large amounts. The power plant gets it by extracting it from the naturally occurring water in the lake so putting some traces of it back into the lake does not cause problems. (Yes I am a geek with a bit of knowledge about many things)

The high fluoride levels may be toxic to fish. The provincial standards for people say that the chlorine in drinking water is just fine, but it can kill fish. Some similar sensitivity may exist for fluorine, since it is also a monovalent element with chemical properties similar in many ways to chlorine.

An RO for a whole house is almost unheard of. Even a single faucet RO can run a couple of hundred dollars to buy if you install it yourself, I have one in the kitchen that I installed myself. Be aware that any RO you buy will only produce about half as much water in a day as the ratings would have you believe. The ratings are at ideal temperatures and pressures which will have little to do with the conditions in your home. Thorough cleaning of a new tank should not be needed beyond rinsing it out to remove dirt and dust that it may have picked up during shipping. After 2 months, I would expect any effect of dirt and dust to be long gone.

 

[RookieAqua]

Well good to know that the D2O is not the problem and that I cleaned the tanks properly. I was grasping at straws but thought maybe.

As for the RO system, I know we were quite surprised that they had "whole house" systems, but they were in the thousands of dollars to buy plus installation. I had never heard of them before so I was quite surprised that they exist. The unit for them is huge kind of an eyesore in the back of the house, plus the cost just wasn't feasible. The one for just the sink was about $200 plus installation, so much more feasible, but will have to wait for a little while.

The numbers I gave you for the fluoride were incorrect, the amount in our water is 1-1.5ppm, the provincial average being 0.5-0.75, don't know where I got the 3-4 from sorry about that. I have done some research on fluoride effects on fish, and it appears to vary with the species, also, toxicity is worse in soft water (which I don't have) and in warm temperatures (30 C or greater). Also I have yet to find any conclusive research that says how much is too much or even if it is toxic to fish. Almost everything I read states that world average for fluoride in drinking water is 2-2.5ppm and that this is not a problem for fish. Plus I found out that the water conditioner I am using somehow removes or neutralizes the fluoride. So I guess it should be ok...well my neighbours have been using the same tap water for about a year and their fish are healthy, so I guess I shouldn't have panicked about it

But I am still having the issue with the stalled cycle. Checked water today, no change in the little tank. The bigger tank it appears that the ammonia may have gone down a little, from 2 to 1-2 (so I guess 1.5) but it could be my wishful thinking.

Thanks for all the help, and if there is else you can think of for me to try please let me know. I am willing to do things differently, rearrange things, stand on my head, pray to the bacteria gods, whatever it takes. At one point I was ready to throw in the towel, but now it is like a battle of wills, I am bound and determined to beat the bacteria

 

[rebrn]

Hello,

First let me just say you may want to double check that your dechlorinator actually neutralizes the fluoride, most, from my research, do not do this. Yours may have some different chelating agents that do, but I would double check with the manufacturer just to be sure. However, irregardless of weather or not it does I don't believe you have to worry.

I did some research on fluoride in tap water, essentially because you peaked my interest. This is what I have discovered.

The cheapest and fastest way to neutralize the toxic effects of fluoride is to add salt. I remember you mentioning that you have a high salt content in your water, this is probably why the water company is adding additional (more then the average) fluoride into your water. I think perhaps they are adding 3-4ppm of fluoride (I am guessing that is where you came up with that number) knowing that 90-95% of it is going to bind with the natural occurring salt making it inert. When salt and fluoride bond it creates calcium fluoride, which is non toxic to both humans and animals (at least per my Internet research). This is probably the other reason why they are adding so much fluoride to the water, to help neutralize the higher salt content.

So when the salt and fluoride combine you will essentially have calcium fluoride, some free fluoride (most likely within the national average of 0.2ppm completely fish safe per my research), some free salt (but less than is what is occurring in your water), and some free sodium. So the bottom line is you probably have much much less free fluoride in your water than you think, probably even less than the 1-1.5ppm they reported. I am not sure how the fluoride tests are done, weather or not the test differentiates between calcium fluoride and regular fluoride, so that might be why they are giving you the number of 1-1.5 fluoride - it probably does not differentiate between the two. So that should, if the information I have found is correct, eliminate your toxicity issues. Also, I found lots of people that have fluorinated water with no issues with toxicity. Also, as a side note, I discovered that naturally occurring fluoride can be found in almost all natural bodies of water ranging from 0.5-12ppm of fluoride, so again I don't think this will be an issue for your fish, but as you said it is probably species specific as to how much they can handle.

Finally, as for the fluoride causing problems with your bacteria colony, fluoride can kill certain bacteria, all information seemed to focus on bacteria that causes tooth decay, I don't think that is the same type found in our fish tanks. However, as mentioned before, more than likely, the majority of the fluoride in your water will be in the form of calcium fluoride, it is doubtful that this is the source of your problem as calcium fluoride is not toxic to aquatic life. Essentially the salt neutralizes the fluoride's toxic effects. Also as your neighbours are getting their water from the same source and have no problems it is unlikely that this is the cause of you stalled cycle.

Now as mentioned you will also have some free floating sodium in your tank, which I know will not be removed by dechlorinators/heavy metal removers as sodium is neither of these. I don't think the free sodium would have an effect, but that might be the next place we want to investigate.

I know this does not give you an answer of how to fix it, but I think we can safely eliminate the salt and fluoride as the cause. At least one step closer to hopefully finding the answer.

 

[RookieAqua]

Thanks rebrn, I too did some research and found similar findings to what you reported, so I think you are right and we can safely eliminate the flouride as the problem.

So update:

My neighbour and I decided to do a little experiment with the smaller tank (5 gallon). I have an Aquaclear 20 filter on the 5 gallon and he has a spare AC 20 filter on his largest tank to maintain a cycled filter for his Quarantine tank when needed. So we decided to take his AC 20 media and put it into my filter, and my AC 20 media went into his filter. We both have the exact same media, 2 AC 20 sponges and Fluval bio ceramic pieces in a store bought media bag. So almost immediately (12 hours after the switch) I achieved 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. This continued for the week that his media was in my filter. So tank cycled right? So we decided to switch the media back (I got my original media back and he got his) thinking that as my media has been running in an established tank (5+ years disease free) for over a week my original media should be over the stall ... no luck. Put my media back in dosed the tank with ammonia (4 ppm) same results as before ammonia is still at 4 (well actually probably 3 a little too light for 4 too dark for 2) and nitrites is at 0. Essentially no change from before we did our little experiment. So now I am thinking it is something to do with my media. We didn't switch the actual filters just the media baskets. But I don't understand why my media would not continue to grow bacteria, especially since it is the same media he has in his filter, also no changes with the 12 gallon tank. I am really stumped now, I truly do not know what else to do.

To date this is what I have done for the tanks:

First mature media donation and gravel donation on 9/15/09 5 gallon and on 10/1/09 12 gallon - no results

several sponge squeezing from mature media 9/12/09 - present both tanks - no results

ran small ac 20 on mature tank for 2 weeks on 10/1/09 (5 gallon tank only) - no results

Second mature media donation and gravel donation on 10/25/09 both tanks - results then stopped

Swapped my media for mature media on 11/24/09 and ran my media on mature tank same date for 1.5 weeks.

Ammonia used is Home Hardware pure ammonia - confirmed ingredients list ammonia hydroxide only, does not foam, also confirmed with the manufacturer no surfactants, soaps dyes perfumes etc. Also used a product at the beginning called Austin's Pure ammonia again did not foam, listed only ammonia hydroxide and confirmed with manufacturer. I got this product in the US and used it at first until I found out the concentration was only 2% so bought the Home Hardware stuff (9% i believe) and switched over. However, I have seen the Austin brand used before by people on this forum, can't remember who, and also on other websites it was recommended, the home hardware ammonia was also recommended by a canadian fishless cycle website.

 

[waterdrop]

Three things I thought of when reading this (agree that we are all grasping at straws though) were:
1) I assume the ammonia just about knocks you out if you get a whiff? It should of course.
(ammonia is a gas and can gas out of the 90% water its in over over a long time - it shouldn't in a sealed bottle of course but its just a thought)
2) Going on the slight suspicion about the filter media, you could just get some entirely different media - a different brand sponge altogether and some sort of aftermarket biomedia such as seachem matrix or eheim substrat pro or whatever fluval or rena ceramics you might see.. The AC should accomodate any of these combos.
3) Additionally, I guess another thing you could do, sort of wacky but, would be to take on the discarded water from your neighbors water changes.. just to be getting some different water in there.. either to dilute or to replace if there's enough. And besides that pinch of dirt from OM, you might also tweak it up with enough baking soda to raise the pH more up in the 8 range, going slowly to get there.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[RookieAqua]

Thanks waterdrop. The ammonia is definitely still good, I always dread taking the lid off the bottle, the whole house smells afterwards, gives me a headache every time, so the smell is most definitely there. As for the media, I do currently have fluval pieces in there and have been in there from the beginning, the stuff that says biomax on the box and then the AC sponges. I am definitely willing to switch it out, but I just thought it was weird that my neighbours media is the same brand and seemed to work in my tank, i don't know just weird, but I will try changing it out to a different brand. I may have forgotten to mention it but I have tried using discarded tank water from my neighbour's tank before the second media donation and it didn't work, but I can certainly try it again. But just out of curiosity, as his water is from the same source (he lives directly across the street) will it really make that much of a difference? The pH drop that occurred in the 5 gallon I fixed with baking soda a few weeks ago and it worked great went up to more than 8, it was dark purple, highest on the chart, and then a couple of days later dropped to 8.0 and has been at 7.8 ever since no other problems with pH. The original pH drop was down to 6.2 so that is why I dosed with some baking soda, but that was just after the 2nd media donation and a good week or 2 before it stalled. The pH was 7.8 when it stalled, should I dose again with baking soda or is 7.8 ok, the 12 gallon is at 7.4 should I dose that as well?

Edit: Also I bought some stuff called Nite out 2 - I know bacteria in a bottle stuff doesn't work, but I figured at this point I have tried everything else so why not give it a go. It says to dose some today then every other day until ammonia drops to 0.6 ppm, but I think I am just going to throw in the whole bottle and see what happens, I will wait until the next water test is due before I try it. I will let you know if it works.

Thanks again, I know this is a tough case and appreciate all your help.

 

[waterdrop]

Well, sounds like none of those suggestions will really help, sorry, just wanted to say something since it sounds so odd. What I meant about using the neighbors water wasn't that it would help cycle per se (water never holds enough autotrophs for that so I would never mean that).. it was just thinking that since his tank was somehow doing ok that perhaps somehow your water just does have some high level of something odd we don't measure and perhaps his somehow doesn't.

WD