Extremely Slow Cycle Please Help

[RookieAqua]

Hello everyone,

Ok so I have had my 2 tanks set up for about a month. The 12 gallon has been set up and running fishless cycle since Oct 1, 2009 and the 5 gallon have been set up fishless cycle since roughly Sep 5, 2009 (I did have fish in this tank 2 danio for less then 24 hours ... they were returned to the aquarium store when I found out about fishless cycling) and I am getting absolutely no results ... literally no results. It has taken well over a month for the 5 gallon tank to go from 4 ppm ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia, and the 12 gallon tank about 3 weeks for the same ammonia drop. I have 0 ppm nitrItes, and 0ppm nitrAtes. I have had 2 donations during this time, one gravel, and the other was filter media ... both donations came from a well established healthy tank (running 2+ years, last disease outbreak in the tank was over a year ago) and still nothing!

What is going on here? I realize that cycling is not an overnight process, but I figured that after a month I should see something (almost 2 months with the 5 gallon). This is everything that I have tried thus far:

1. gravel donation
2. Mature media donation (1/3 of his filter media)
3. Water changes (advised by a friend to maybe jump start my cycle - water
was treated prior to adding to tank with tetra aqua safe)
4. Had friend run my bio media in conjunction with his filter for 2 weeks in his
established tank (note different tank then the gravel and filter media
donation - but established for 5 years last disease in this tank was over 3
years ago).
5. Verified with the company and the MSDS sheet for the product that the
ammonia I used was in fact pure ammonia. Ingredients listed ammonia and
water, shook bottle did not foam.

I am really at a loss here; I literally do not know what else to do. The only thing, other than the ammonia, that was added to my tank was the water conditioner, Tetra Aqua Safe with bio extract. I do not have live plants, I am using basic aquarium gravel, aquarium decorations and silk plants all purchased from an aquarium store. My filters are - 12 gallon tank - marineland filter with bio wheel - 5 gallon tank - aqua clear 20 filters using the default bio filter media (ceramic pieces) that came with the filter. Also I am showing no signs of algae - at least not that I can see.

Like I said I am really at a loss here, I have no idea what I should do next. I have thought of trying one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products but everything I have read about them - reviews etc - say they do not work and are a waste of money ... besides after a month should there not be at least some bacteria in my tank?

I am at my wits end, I am very close to saying forget the whole thing and throw these tanks away ... Any help/advise/tips would be welcome.

Thanks again

FYI water stats for tanks are (same for both tanks):

ammonia 2 ppm (started at 4ppm), nitrIte 0 ppm, nitrAte 0 ppm, pH 7.4 - 7.6 temp between 85 F and 86 F

Tap water reads: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, pH 7.2

Testing supplies used:

API - verified reagents are within dates
Jungle test strips - verified with in dates
Salifert - verified with in dates
Also had water tested at 4 different aquarium shops, and had friends also test my water (not sure of the brand of test kit - but used liquid test not strips)

Edit - also have air stone in each tanks

 

[RookieAqua]

Hi again, just tested my water again today - no changes from the information in the above post. Also, I forgot to mention, both my neighbours (20+ years of experience) also tested my water in the last couple of days. I don't remember the exact numbers they got where but they said my KH, GH and alkainity were all fine and should not be effecting the cycle, or lack there of. I have also asked there opnion of the matter and they are baffled, stating they have never seen a tank act this way before. I am really getting frustrated, I love fish tanks and would love to be able to keep at least one of my own. I just don't understand what I am doing wrong ... please help!

 

[OldMan47]

OK here we go. It is the weekend now and time for tank chores so do a big water change to remove all of the ammonia, treat the new water with a dechlorinator and invite a neighbor to come over and clean their filter in the tanks. One filter cleaning per tank should be plenty to really get things going. It will leave the tank looking terrible but will get you a big start on having the right bacteria in your own filter. As soon as they leave, dose up with the ammonia to around 4 or 5 ppm and stand by for a short cycle. I have no clue how you lost the earlier starts from mature media but obviously you have. When your tank has cycled, you will need to do an extra one or two big water changes to slean up the mess but should be done cycling very quickly. There may not be much bacteria surviving in a bottle but there certainly will be in a mature filter.

 

[RookieAqua]

OK here we go. It is the weekend now and time for tank chores so do a big water change to remove all of the ammonia, treat the new water with a dechlorinator and invite a neighbor to come over and clean their filter in the tanks. One filter cleaning per tank should be plenty to really get things going. It will leave the tank looking terrible but will get you a big start on having the right bacteria in your own filter. As soon as they leave, dose up with the ammonia to around 4 or 5 ppm and stand by for a short cycle. I have no clue how you lost the earlier starts from mature media but obviously you have. When your tank has cycled, you will need to do an extra one or two big water changes to slean up the mess but should be done cycling very quickly. There may not be much bacteria surviving in a bottle but there certainly will be in a mature filter.

Well I will try that again. That is what I did before I added the filter media the last time, large water change, washed the filter in the tank then added the actual spongey type thing (sorry not sure exactly what it was but look like a sponge to me) to my filter, and dosed with ammonia. I think I did 75% WC last time, should I do more this time? Just out of curosity, is there any way that the type of water conditioner I am using would cause the problem, I know it is probably unlikely, but that is the only thing I can think of and as my neighbours and I live less then a mile away from eachother we know we get the water from the same source, but they use different water conditioners.

Thanks again

 

[OldMan47]

The water change is to protect the friend's filter from picking up ammonia in your tank while it is being cleaned. As long as you have effectively removed the ammonia to protect his fish, your water change is big enough. Do not do a water change after spiking the tank with live bacteria. You want to give the loose floating bacteria a chance to find a home in your filter, that is why you did this. You do not really need your water that hot for a cycle unless you intend to keep warm water fish in it. Shortening the doubling time for bacteria from 23 hours to 22 hours by raising the temperature may help in some cases but it is flirting with being too hot and is certainly too hot for most of the fish that we keep.
Most dechlorinators are simple sodium thiosulphate. Almost all manufacturers add something so that they can claim it is different from all of the others but I doubt that they use any different functioning ingredients. It certainly couldn't hurt to change to one of the more popular brands like Prime for a dechlorinator, but I would think that we would have heard tales of problems if it kept being the same dechlorinator that stalled a cycle.

 

[RookieAqua]

The water change is to protect the friend's filter from picking up ammonia in your tank while it is being cleaned. As long as you have effectively removed the ammonia to protect his fish, your water change is big enough. Do not do a water change after spiking the tank with live bacteria. You want to give the loose floating bacteria a chance to find a home in your filter, that is why you did this. You do not really need your water that hot for a cycle unless you intend to keep warm water fish in it. Shortening the doubling time for bacteria from 23 hours to 22 hours by raising the temperature may help in some cases but it is flirting with being too hot and is certainly too hot for most of the fish that we keep.
Most dechlorinators are simple sodium thiosulphate. Almost all manufacturers add something so that they can claim it is different from all of the others but I doubt that they use any different functioning ingredients. It certainly couldn't hurt to change to one of the more popular brands like Prime for a dechlorinator, but I would think that we would have heard tales of problems if it kept being the same dechlorinator that stalled a cycle.

Yeah I didn't think it was the dechlornitor, but that was the only difference between my tanks and thiers, grasping at straws here to find an answer . As for the water changes. I did not do one after seeding with my friends media. I did it before then about 3 weeks after only because I had no results and that was only in the 5 gallon tank ... I have not done one at all in the 12 gallon tank, and that one has been going on 4 weeks now post seed from gravel and filter media. It is really strange, I am starting to think I am just not meant to have fish. But I will keep trying, I just lowered the temperature down to around 80 in both tanks, I only had it up that high because I thought I was suppose to for the cycle, I thought I had read that it needed to be in the mid to high 80s, but I must have misread, so I lowered it. My one neighbour is cleaning out his tank later today, he said he will bring his filter over and do another wash out. He runs 2 filters in his tank and he said that he had to completely change out the sponge in one of his filters because it is starting to fall apart, so he said he will just give me that sponge to put into my tank as well. So I will go ahead and do the water change in prep for him. Hopefully this time it will work. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[OldMan47]

The higher temperature can speed things up slightly in many cases. I am also grasping at straws over what the problem might be. My thought was that if the temperature dial you are reading is off a few degrees, your tank could actually be at 90 which really would be a bit much.

 

[RookieAqua]

The higher temperature can speed things up slightly in many cases. I am also grasping at straws over what the problem might be. My thought was that if the temperature dial you are reading is off a few degrees, your tank could actually be at 90 which really would be a bit much.

Actually the temp readings I gave were actually off the themometers. I have 3 for each tank, one that sticks on the outside (I know not extremely accurate), one regular thermometer suction cupped to the inside of the tank and one probe digital thermometer. And of course they are all on the opposite side of the heater, so no thermometer is right next to the heater. The temperature in both tanks has never dropped below 84 F and never above 86 F, and yes I check them quite frequently. They are not min/max thermometers but I must check them at least 5-6 times per day. So does that mean I should raise the temp on the tanks back up? SInce I lowerd the heater the temps are still around 85 F (obviously not enough time for the water to completely cool down yet).

 

[OldMan47]

If you are that certain of the temperature, leave it in the mid 80s and it will be fine. I think we are all trying to figure out why you are having so much trouble.

 

[RookieAqua]

If you are that certain of the temperature, leave it in the mid 80s and it will be fine. I think we are all trying to figure out why you are having so much trouble.

ok ... well I have the heaters set at 83 so I just leave it there just in case...although I am almost certain I don't have 6 bad themometers .
I know I am so confused about this, I mean I have a biology major, granted zooology not marine biology, but still, scientifically speaking, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I am completey stumped. I have 2 neighbours, one been keeping fish for over 25 years and the other for 21 years, and they have not got a clue as to what the problem is. Now granted they are relatively new to the concept of fishless cycles, but still the nitrogen cycle is the same wheather fish are in the pitcure or not. I am tempted to try one of the bacteria in a bottle methods, I mean since the traditional seedsing methods didn't work for me maybe I will be the 1 in a million that the bottled bacteria will work for

Thanks again, it is really nice to have a place to rant about this ... if nothing else I do feel less frustrated

 

[OldMan47]

If you are that certain of the temperature, leave it in the mid 80s and it will be fine. I think we are all trying to figure out why you are having so much trouble.

ok ... well I have the heaters set at 83 so I just leave it there just in case...although I am almost certain I don't have 6 bad themometers .
I know I am so confused about this, I mean I have a biology major, granted zooology not marine biology, but still, scientifically speaking, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I am completey stumped. I have 2 neighbours, one been keeping fish for over 25 years and the other for 21 years, and they have not got a clue as to what the problem is. Now granted they are relatively new to the concept of fishless cycles, but still the nitrogen cycle is the same wheather fish are in the pitcure or not. I am tempted to try one of the bacteria in a bottle methods, I mean since the traditional seedsing methods didn't work for me maybe I will be the 1 in a million that the bottled bacteria will work for

Thanks again, it is really nice to have a place to rant about this ... if nothing else I do feel less frustrated

I am glad we can be of some assistance in that small way. Sometimes it help to vent a bit. Have you thought to use a pinch of garden soil to get started? As you say the nitrogen cycle is far from unique to a water environment. We actually use an open ended cycle, as I am sure you have figured out.

 

[RookieAqua]

If you are that certain of the temperature, leave it in the mid 80s and it will be fine. I think we are all trying to figure out why you are having so much trouble.

ok ... well I have the heaters set at 83 so I just leave it there just in case...although I am almost certain I don't have 6 bad themometers .
I know I am so confused about this, I mean I have a biology major, granted zooology not marine biology, but still, scientifically speaking, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I am completey stumped. I have 2 neighbours, one been keeping fish for over 25 years and the other for 21 years, and they have not got a clue as to what the problem is. Now granted they are relatively new to the concept of fishless cycles, but still the nitrogen cycle is the same wheather fish are in the pitcure or not. I am tempted to try one of the bacteria in a bottle methods, I mean since the traditional seedsing methods didn't work for me maybe I will be the 1 in a million that the bottled bacteria will work for

Thanks again, it is really nice to have a place to rant about this ... if nothing else I do feel less frustrated

I am glad we can be of some assistance in that small way. Sometimes it help to vent a bit. Have you thought to use a pinch of garden soil to get started? As you say the nitrogen cycle is far from unique to a water environment. We actually use an open ended cycle, as I am sure you have figured out.

No I haven't, but you are right, that would make sense. I wonder if I should use the dirt in my back yard or some of my potting soil. I suppose potting soil would be less likely to have additional contaminents/pollutants in it, might be safer in the long run.

 

[RookieAqua]

Well I think I at last found the problem and a potential solution. I took my nieces to the local public aquarium (not a large one, small private owned) and spoke to one of the aquarium "keepers" that work there. When I told him the story of my tanks that just won’t cycle, he actually laughed; he said that they get at least 1 phone call a day saying the same thing. Basically this is what he said the water in our area has 2 main problems that most people do not know about. They are:

1. Our fresh water contains a slightly high salt content. Not significantly high, he said it would be equal to adding approximately 1/2 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon.

2. Our water company adds additional fluoride to our water ... great for people, not harmful to the fish (so he said) but can stall and or prevent cycling.

So solutions - I ran through everything I did thus far with him and his response was that I did not use enough mature media to combat the problems with the water. He said I needed at least twice the amount of mature media ... but more would be better. So tomorrow, Sunday, the aquarium is closed for their weekly cleaning of their tanks. He generously offered to set me up. He said come back tomorrow afternoon and he will have bags of substrate for me, he will also squeeze/wash out all their filters into some of their aquarium water for me (so that is at least 20-30 filter washings). He also said that since it is month end he will be changing out one complete filter sponge from the one of the 6 extremely large canister filters from the very large main freshwater aquarium and he will give me the entire sponge. I saw the sponges they use for those large canister filters ... it is huge at least 4-5x larger than the pieces of mature filter sponge I had used before. Here are the steps he told me to take:

1 - Do a partial water change in the tank exchanging my water for the aquarium water (with the washings) he will provide to me.
2 - Add the substrate he will provide for me - he said he will put the substrate into fine mesh bags that way since it won't match my current substrate I can easily remove it once the tank is cycled.
3 - Add the filter sponge directly to my tank, clipping it to the side or weighing it down with the substrate bags.

He told me he would provide me with enough mature media/filter washing water to cycle both my tanks. He also said that if my tanks are not cycled within the week to let him know, but he is positive that my tanks should be fully cycled within the week.

So I will let you all know the results of this new plan ... I really hope it works. But at least I seem to have an answer now.

 

[OldMan47]

It sounds like you have an especially difficult water situation that you are combating. At least you found the one person who could find the issue and get you on the right path. Most of his suggestions make good sense to me, now that I know what you are facing. Please let us know how things turn out for you.

 

[RookieAqua]

OK so it has been about a month since I added the donated media to my tanks. Basically, I put in as much of the donated sponge into the filters as I could (added to the filters, also kept my original media) while maintaining good water flow, added the donated gravel to the tanks (placed in new nylon stockings), squeezed the reaming sponge into my tanks and let the remaining sponge float in my tank (the extra sponge that would not fit into the filter). Well after about 3 days things were going great. I started processing ammonia, seeing nitrites and nitrates. Ammonia was dropping from 4ppm to 0ppm in about 24 hours, nitrites were processing to 0ppm from about 5 ppm in roughly 48 hours. This lasted about 2 weeks, then it stopped. I mean, ammonia and nitrites were no longer being processed. pH did drop once to 6.4, came back up to 7.2 after adding a dose of ammonia and has remained at 7.2-7.6 ever since. The weird thing is that the cycle has appeared to stop in both tanks, not just one. Once I was getting nitrite spikes of 5 (or more) I only dosed the tanks with ammonia to bring them up to 2ppm, per the instructions. Everything was going great until about 3 days ago, for 3 straight days my ammonia has remained at 2ppm (no additional doses) and the nitrites have remained at around 1ppm. Nitrates are currently at around 80ppm in both tanks. I have not done any water changes as of yet, and there is no algae (that I can see). I am really at a loss now, I was finally making process and now nothing. I know my tap water has high amounts of fluoride (not sure exactly how much, I was just told, higher then the provincial average). Other than the fluoride my tap water stats are:

pH 7.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0

But as I have said there has been no water changes since about 3 weeks prior to adding the donated media. Not sure what is going on here, any ideas as to why the cycle has come to an abrupt halt. Donated media is still in the filter/tank.
Thanks