Euthanasia Of Freshwater Fish

I also have had "good" experience with the freezing water method for my tropical fish. i've used it at least twice, once for a boesemani rainbow and once for a crowntail betta. both died within 20 seconds, however, i wouldn't say it looks pretty! the fish seem to suffer in my opinion for those 10 seconds out of the 20 that they are freaking out and trying to get out. then they die...humane? it's the best way i know how to go about it...but it's still heart-wrenching!

does noone here know a vet that could give some insight?
 
Well there was Emmsy... but we all know what happened there.

This is my personal observation, and I have no evidence to back it because I don't have time to go through all of the scientific papers. So maybe it doesn't belong in the scientific section but I thought I'd throw it on the table for debate because it's an interesting point.

A lot of people have said or suggested that for euthanasia to be humane it has to induce unconsciousness almost immediately. This implies that clove oil is not the most humane method because it does not do this. However I have been using clove oil for this purpose for over a year and I have not seen any signs of distress or suffering in fish once they have been placed in the clove oil solution but before they become unconscious. If the fish remains conscious in the clove oil solution for 30 seconds or so - but does not experience any pain and distress during this time - is there any reason why this should be considered inhumane? I see none. After this time the fish becomes unconscious. I usually just leave it in the solution until it stops breathing, because it seems unnecessary and a bit gory to take it out and decapitate it.
 
Further to my defence of clove oil as a euthanasia option for small fish, I quote from the study provided in the first post, American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia.

"In evaluating methods of euthanasia, the panel used the following criteria: (1) ability to induce loss of consciousness and death without causing pain, distress, anxiety, or apprehension; (2) time required to induce loss of consciousness; (3) reliability; (4) safety of personnel; (5) irreversibility; (6) compatibility with requirement and purpose; (7) emotional effect on observers or operators; (8) compatibility with subsequent evaluation, examination, or use of tissue; (9) drug availability and human abuse potential; (10) compatibility with species, age, and health status; (11) ability to maintain equipment in proper working order; and (12) safety for predators/scavengers should the carcass be consumed."

(1) I answered this in my previous post. It is by no means proven but I have not noticed any signs that the fish becomes distressed. I have never observed darting, rapid gill movement, eye rolling, eratic fin movement or jumping in fish that have been placed in a clove oil solution for anaesthesia or euthanasia. Basically I believe it is reasonable to assume that clove oil does not cause pain or distress because for the first few seconds the fish would be perfectly capable of panicking, and they do not.

(2) This is the possible contention point. If enough clove oil is used it can render a fish completely insensible in under 10 seconds. Obviously this overdose is not safe for anaesthesia, but it is euthanasia that is being debated in this thread.

(3) If the fish is left in the clove oil solution until all gill movement has stopped and then left for another 5 minutes, I have never had one revive. I have never had a fish fail to become unconscious under clove oil.

(4) Clove oil is a poison and must be treated as such. However, fishkeepers handle similar quantities of more dangerous substances (ie. reagents for water tests - phenol!!!) on a daily basis and are used to being careful with small bottles.

(5) An overdose of clove oil is sufficient to render a fish unconscious and then over several minutes stop all gill movement. If a fish is not breathing and has not been breathing for five minutes, I think it's fair to say that fish is dead. Clove oil is reversible; this is clearly demonstrated by its use as an anaesthetic. So is halothane, isoflurane, most other inhalant anaesthetics, certain doses of barbiturates and many of the other methods suggested by AVMA. If used correctly and in sufficient dosage they are still considered humane methods of euthanasia.

(6) The requirement and purpose is to kill a fish with minimal pain and suffering. I believe that clove oil does this. It is easier for most people to place a fish into a solution than to hold down a struggling fish and try to cut in the right place so as to kill it instantly. If the fish is sedated before having its spinal cord severed or its brain pierced, what sedative will most people use? Clove oil. The majority of us, who are not doctors or vets and do not have access to restricted drugs, consider clove oil to be a humane and rapid way of anaesthetising a fish. If it was not, would it still be widely recommended? No. It would have been condemned by animal protection authorities - AND veterinary societies. I have seen that clove oil, even at anaesthesia concentrations, will kill a fish that is left in it for an extended period. However I would suggest that this method is less suitable for large fish because of the time needed to induce anaesthesia and the volume of clove oil that would be needed to treat enough water so that the fish remains comfortable in this time.

(7) I believe that an anaesthetic overdose is the least emotionally difficult on the fishkeeper who is having to destroy a friend. There's no blood, no gore, no struggling fish to pin down and butcher and no panicked last moments thrashing around in freezing or boiling water or a solution of some toxic poison. Clove oil is the only anaesthetic that is easily accessible to somebody without medical qualifications.

(8) In the majority of cases, clove oil is being used for the euthanasia of an old, injured or diseased fish kept by a hobbyist. That is the use this thread is mainly about. An interested hobbyist may perform a physical post mortem. However it is unlikely that any of the tissues would have to be collected and analysed for post mortem testing. If so, clove oil may be unsuitable but this will be the case in such a small minority of cases I hardly consider it worth worrying about.

(9) Clove oil is sold over the counter at pharmacies. This means it is easily available to any person. It also suggests that it cannot be abused by humans or it would not be so freely available. It is cheap as well.

(10) Obviously you would not be euthanising a fully grown barramundi (an enormous Australian angling fish) with a few drops of clove oil. I think this calls for common sense.

(11) Provided the clove oil is not sixteen years old and the container used is large enough for the fish to be comfortable in it, I don't see that there is much chance of the fish suffering because of poorly maintained equipment.

(12) I dispose of my dead fish by burying them and I have noticed that the graves of fish euthanised with clove oil have not been dotted with ant burrows. However I do not believe that a small tropical fish would retain sufficient quantities of clove oil in its body to poison anything that might eat it. The smell of clove oil may be enough of a deterrent in itself to discourage scavengers from eating dead fish anyway. Fish that are flushed down the toilet when dead or put in the garbage do not pose a threat to predators.



I believe that answers all the guidelines.
 
For the sake of correctness the guidelines do say that clove oil is unacceptable, but the reason given is insufficient research.

2x = 8.
x = 4.

I haven't proven that x = 4 because I haven't put it through a calculator etc. Just because I haven't researched every last possibility to prove that x = 4, doesn't mean that x doesn't equal four.
 
People have talked about cold / freezing water which can take a long time for the fish to die.

Has anyone tried a compressed air duster? If you turn the can upside down and spray you get tetrafluoroethane liquid that is chilled to approximately -27*C. I would imagine that would be much quicker than water chilled to 1 or 2*C
 
interesting debate, & until more research is done it will remain just that.

Some thoughts:-

Pain/pain response.... the debate as to whether animals feel pain is a typical anthropogenic one... ie we try to equate stimuli & response mode to a human stimuli/response mode, carried to even a basic logical conclusion there is no way to show any creature other than man "feels pain", as , as has already been said "they cannot tell us it really hurt". As a guide I would say that if a response to a stimulus produces a result analogous to a pain response in humans than the animal can be said to respond to "pain". At the end of the day I think it can be argued that humans merely react to unpleasant or potentially harmful stimuli in a way we call "pain response" and that it is inseparable from a similar action in other animals ( any that would react in a predictable way to a given stimulus). Just because we can give it a name and communicate that to other humans is by no means a scientific method of differentiation, as we are totally unaware if other animals can effectively communicate similar information, just because they cannot communicate such info to US does not mean that it does not happen. (OK a slightly wider application than just fish here)

Research to date:- Almost all research done in aquatics, and especially in medications etc are carried out on commercial fish.(after all that is where the money is) Therefore they are usually much larger and predominantly cold water species. It does not follow that such research is applicable to much smaller and tropical species. However it can be used as a baseline for further investigation. When it comes to tropical species held in captivity it is likely that most "useful" info will come from serious hobbyists and commercial breeders rather than scientific institutions..... AFAIK there is no "Rockefeller guppy institute", or similar conducting extensive and in depth research into ornamental tropical species. Commercial fish farms may commission research into specific problems, but IME this seems to be more a case of " get a vet & try to fix it", rather than a stricter sense of scientific research. The findings of such an investigation are no less valid for not being published or reviewed, but also should not be treated as "fact" until verified.

Clove oil as an anaesthetic:- used by US fisheries for documented investigations into non food species. Also used worldwide as a widely available "non vet" anaesthetic, used in several proprietary medications for this purpose.

Clove oil for euthanasia:- the attached report seems to indicate it's unacceptability based on lack of research or available verifiable data. Such research is unlikely to be forthcoming as clove oil is not a protectable ingredient under patent or copyright, and therefore there is no commercial gain to be made by further research. Products such as MS222 are commercially viable as the product can and is patentable and protected by the manufacturer, therefore commercial research is also viable.

My experience in euthanising fish from 1/2 to 16" is that both ms222 and eugenol (clove oil) are equally effective. as clove oil is easily obtainable I will restrict further comments to that product alone. Fish exhibit no "stress response" ... trying to escape, thrashing round, rapid movement or breathing... at sub lethal and lethal doses. Fish subject to sub lethal dose recover rapidly in clean water and exhibit no signs of ordeal following the useage, I have found no long term problems in its use as a calming agent or anaesthetic, lifespan does not seem influenced. (please bear in mind the objective nature of that statement and the small sample used). Fish subject to a lethal dose pass away quietly and without fuss.


I would generally agree with the findings of the report regarding other methods of euthanasia
 
One of the hottest questions on our forum is what is the safest, most humane method to euthanize an ailing fish. Classically, a preponderance of members will cite oil of cloves. Is there enough evidence to prove this method is the best? Below is a link to the current recommendations by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). Refer to page 20

AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia

Hi.. i dont know much about euthanisation but heres my first experience of it..

My neon had dropsy and was in her last stage of the illness, basically her belly had deflated and she couldnt swim at all, the other fish kept nipping at her and the water was what was moving her around in the tank, i couldnt see her like that, so i called the aquarium shop and told them what was happeneing and they confirmed that there was nothing else to do, so i took her out of the tank...

I thought that this was the only way to free her of any pain and put her out of her missery... do you think that i made her suffer more or if it was the best thing that could have been done... obviously fish can survive out of water so i thought she would have died after a few seconds or so...

Am i wrong??....
 
Am i wrong??....
Wrong in that they can survive more than a few seconds out of water. Look around and you'll find stories of various species jumping put of the tank and being find once put back in 10-30mins later. Neons probably couldn't last that long, but IME they can last about 5mins easily, longer if kept damp (like in a wet fish net).
I still think the best thing to do is to quickly crush the fish. Sounds gruesome, but I think people should be willing to put themselves through it if they care about the fishes welfare.
Leaving the fish out of the water is just asphyxiating the fish. Though you obviously didn't know any better at the time so it was the right thing to do then.
 
Ok... I dunno i just though that was the only thing that could be done... but if you were to put a fish back into water after they had been taken out for some time but were still alive... wouldnt it be brain damaged or something... like with humans?...

I put this post up after reading the different ways... personally i dont think they are any good from what i heard... i mean vodka would give them sooo much pain.. clove oil makes them unconscious and not kill them and bashing or cutting the fish with a knife gives them pain too...

unless you make them unconscious with clove oil then cut the head off...

I think if i had to i would do that.... but hopefully i wont..

Thanks for your response!
 
There's really no need to add vodka or decapitate/crush the fish after using clove oil. If a fish is left in it long enough, even at sub lethal dosages it will just expire quietly. It's sort of like if you left me hooked up to an anaesthetic machine for a few days - your chances of waking me up would be pretty limited.

No way of euthanising anything is really 100% nice, but it's the same with humans. I mean, if you're going to kill yourself, whether you hang yourself or jump off a bridge or take poison or shoot yourself or drive your car off a cliff, there's no way of doing it that's absolutely painless except overdosing on Nembutal. Well most of us can't get pentabarbital or thiopentone - just like most of us can't get ms222 when it's our fish that we're worrying about.

It's really difficult to know what degree, if any, brain damage fish would suffer if deprived of oxygen, or overdosed on some form of hallicinogen or neurosuppresant and then revived. It's easy to tell with humans - somebody you know suddenly forgets the name of their pets, what relation you are to them, how old they are, where they live, what town they grew up in... there's a very definite way to measure what a human has forgotten or how their IQ may have fallen because it's communicable. With fish it's not. I mean, obviously you're going to notice if your fish is paralysed on one side or swims in circles or doesn't interact with conspecifics. But how do you know if a fish that appears normal is actually suffering? It's hard to say to what degree fish feel emotion. In fact it's probably impossible. But it has been proven that fish can remember which coloured light they are fed under, a sound that is made before being fed, or the colour shirt their owner wears when feeding them. My fish recognise me - they come to the top and demand to be fed, which they never do for my parents who don't feed them. I can pat my bettas like a cat or dog. And ask anyone on this forum who's kept large cichlids and they'll tell you their pets are affectionate.
At any rate I would say that the irreversibility of euthanasia is one of the major considerations. You can't have them spontaneously waking up. Obviously if the fish is removed from water this wont' happen but I'd like to suggest the fish should not be taken out of water until all gill movement has stopped if a chemical method is being used. I heard a horrific story on teh LFS grapevine that somebody clove oiled a fish, buried it and later found the ground churned up where the fish had struggled before asphyxiating. This is the sort of thing I always try to avoid.
 
I really should stop by this part of the forum more often than I do. Fascinating stuff.

As it happens, over the weekend I wrote an article on euthanasia for Wet Web Media. In researching the article, I went back to fish books written by or with vets, and various scientific papers I could get hold of via Google. What was interesting to me was that almost all authors seemed to be against the use of ice, except perhaps where very small (sub-5 cm) fish are concerned, and even then where the fish is placed in ice-cold water and not physically in contact with ice itself.

The clove oil method is interesting; while I hadn't assumed it was widely used, it does seem that there is a body of support in its favour, though as others have mentioned here already it is a carcinogen, so needs to be handled carefully. Borski and Hodson (2003) recommend a dose of at least 400 mg/l to get a quick, painless death.

Now, my clove oil dispenser appears to produce drops 0.25 cm in diameter. The density of clove oil is 1060 mg/cm3. That means if the volume of the drop is 0.008 cm3, then the mass clove oil in a drop is 1060 * 0.008 mg = 8.48 mg. That translates as ~47 drops per litre needed to get the >400 mg/l concentration required. That's a lot! (Please feel free to check my maths!)

The CO2 method looks do-able. Requires saturation of the water by passing pressurised CO2 through the water for 30 seconds, and then immersion of the fish for >10 minutes.

There are links to the relevant papers on the bottom of the article for those who want to follow them up and discuss further.

Cheers, Neale
 
This may be slightly off topic but can I ask if fish are thought not to feel pain, then how do they feel the urge to itch?.
 
It comes down to the difference between "irritation" and "pain". Semantics perhaps... Lots of organisms show irritability, i.e., the ability to detect and respond to negative stimuli. Anemones pulling their tentacles in when touched, or clams spitting out excess silt would be examples. Pain is something in between detecting a negative stimulus and then reacting to it; it's an awareness that the stimulus is negative, rather than mindlessly reacting to it. See the Wikipedia articles for more discussion of the two.

Cheers, Neale

This may be slightly off topic but can I ask if fish are thought not to feel pain, then how do they feel the urge to itch?.
 
It comes down to the difference between "irritation" and "pain". Semantics perhaps... Lots of organisms show irritability, i.e., the ability to detect and respond to negative stimuli. Anemones pulling their tentacles in when touched, or clams spitting out excess silt would be examples. Pain is something in between detecting a negative stimulus and then reacting to it; it's an awareness that the stimulus is negative, rather than mindlessly reacting to it. See the Wikipedia articles for more discussion of the two.

Cheers, Neale

This may be slightly off topic but can I ask if fish are thought not to feel pain, then how do they feel the urge to itch?.

Ahh ok, I understand now thanks :good:
 
Ace, you might like to read through some of the older threads this forum's discussed the "so fish feel pain" question.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...545&hl=pain
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...396&hl=pain
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...175&hl=pain

I think that there are pretty good articles which argue both sides of the question, and the question isn't definitively answered. I also think that some of the more modern research into the function of fish's brain and nervous system show that while the exact same pain reception areas that are in mammals' brains aren't present, there are area in the fish's brains that perform many of the same functions. My personal opinion is leaning more towards that fish can indeed feel something very similar if not the same as pain, though I am certainly no expert in the area.
 

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