Euthanasia by Freezing ?!?!?

[sparkly]

Second thing, pain is something your brain percieves in response to an impulse sent from a receptor. If fish don't have the receptors or the part of brain that recieves the impulse they won't feel pain. Fish have a primitive nervous system, they are unlikely to feel pain in the way we do. Although, obviously we don't know exactly how their nervous system works so better to be safe than sorry. I personally would freeze a small fish and bash a large one on the head with a hammer may sound cruel but it would be instant!

 

[Haiku]

Well I prefer how the clove oil sounds for sure. As far as the ice cubes though, if I stuck my finger in a tray of pure ice cubes I'd surely feel a bit of sting, but when I dip my finger into a glass of water that has had ice cubes floating in it for a few minutes, I can't say as I perceive any pain. I really do not know the differences of a fish's nervous system in regards to feeling pain, but if I had to do it I'd prefer to do it in a way that seemed as painless as possible.

So in a nutshell my feeling is the clove oil/ambesol sounds most preferable. Water with ice cubes sounds better than sticking in the freezer. I know that I would never have what it takes to cut their head off or smash them with a hammer, I just couldn't do that.

 

[FalconStorm]

Okay, dropping a fish in almost freezing water may be better than leaving them in the freezer, but I still maintain that it would not be as good an alternative as clove oil, unless you cannot obtain clove oil.

For one, a fish's pain receptors are enough like ours that they will avoid things that are harmful to them. That is the entire purpose of pain. If they could not feel pain, then they would not try to rub ich off on things in the tank and they would not thrash around from ich and velvet. That requires pain receptors, no matter how primitive they may be.

Being that I know that they can experience some kind of pain, the only assumptions I can truly make about them are based on human experiences. Humans thrown into shock are generally still aware of feeling to some extent and live for at least a little while. It takes time for shock to kill and it takes time for cold to kill. People can survive being dunked under the water of an icy lake, so obviously death isn't instantaneous. It may be much faster for a fish, but it still takes time. On top of that, in cold water, they cannot breathe. So, they go into shock and suffocate as they freeze.

The cold water may be comparable to clove oil in speed when used as described above, but it is not peaceful. Like I said, if there is no other alternative, the freezing method is probably the best option, but I will still use clove oil as the most humane method.

 

[sparkly]

A person exposed to -18 degrees c would be dead in less than a few minutes. Heat loss is relative to an organisms surface area: volume ratio. A fish is smaller therefore will have a very high SA:vol ratio and it will lose it's body heat 100's of times faster than a human. You stay alive because your blood carries oxygen and glucose to the central areas of your brain involved regulating breathing and your heart rate for an important reaction to happen. For this reaction to happen (respiration) the temperature needs to be correct - humans around 37 degrees, less for fish. No respiration = no energy = cell death, cell death in the central brain = dead. We can regulate our body temperature in a process called homeostasis (but still only for a small deviation around 37 degrees), fish cannot do this. Lowering the temp by a few degrees will decrease the respiration rate as they don't have the correct mechanisms to regulate their body temperature. Lowering the rate by a large amount will cease respiration VERY quickly. No respiration in important areas of the brain = dead.

re: fish dying in cold water, this is because of reduced respiration rate, respiration is the way the body releases energy, no energy no cell activity

Pain is sensed by the brain in an area called the cortex (the outer folded bit) this is what is more developed in more complex species. Relatively simple animals display pain-like behaviours that represent the integrated output of homeostatic control regions in the brainstem (the central part of the brain) – that is, behaviors based on survival needs – but they do have the developed cortex (which is to do the body actually feeling the pain!)

When you move away from eg burning you hand, this is a reflex - nothing to do with teh conscious part of your brain, the pain is secondary to this. You will move your arm away before you actually realise it hurts. Fish will have reflexes this is a different part of the nervous system

sorry for boring people with the biology, am not trying to be a know-it all *honest* - it's an interesting subject!

 

[ThinIce]

I think what you're quite rightly highlighting here is that there are two important factors in this dicussion

- pain experienced through method

relative to

- time taken till loss of conciousness (can this be defined as such in fish?) eventual death

Knowing the biology is important because it probably can give us an answer to the first factor. Time taken is observeable I guess

 

[Opcn]

a little pain over a long time can be worse than alot of pain for an instant, the best way to end a fishes life with little to no pain felt is still crushing them suddenly, there lives are ended before they have the chance to feel the pain.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Ok im just gonna add some of my input here as to how exactly you define "humane";
a. If dying quickly as posible is humane, then the quicker the more humane it is, no?
Everyone here seems to advise clove oil as a "humane method" of putting a fish down, but it is certainly not the fastest from what i have heard and seen.
If you do not shake the mixture up thoroughly enough it can take minutes for the fish to die- i've heard accounts of peoples fish taking 4minutes to die in clove oil- surely this is not humane?
I also think the size of the fish also depends on what form of putting it down should be- before i knew about how freezing was an unaceptable form of putting a fish down, i put 5 inbred deformed fry down by the method that i recieved from a sick female guppy i had saved- i simply took the fry out in a net, put the net in the freezer and they were dead in 3seconds(yes 3seconds, i counted). This sounds like a far quicker way to die than clove oil although i do see it not being very effective for a large fish, they most likely only died so quickly because the fry were so small.

I had to put some of my fish down fairly recently due to a internal parasite outbreak i had in one of my tanks- there is no med in the uk to treat this and by the time somone offered to post me some meds for it, it was too late and i had to start putting fish down just to combat the outbreak. I have heard storys of people having to put all their fish down and disinfect their tanks just to combat the parasite.
So i started looking into forms of euthanasia for my fish. After trying some techniques out, i would say bashing the fish's brains out is the best as gory as it is. Catch the fish in a net and quicky remove it from the tank water while wrapping the fish around once in the net so it can't get out- in one swipe bash it on the head with an object heavier enough and bigger enough surface area to hit the fishs head and neck/base or spinal cord at once. This process should only take a second or 2- this fish's tail may still be moving but this is only reflex muscle spasm and not the fish still alive moving and is a often seen in people or other animals in quick death accidents like a gun shot to the head and is nothing to worry about.
If it makes you feel better or if you don't feel you did a good job hitting it, quickly sever the fish's head with a pair of scissors or sharp knife to make sure the fish is realy, realy dead.
This is by far the quickest method i used and much quicker than clove oil, which i also tried- its gory i know, but if you want to kill the fish as quickly and "humanely" as posible, this is the way to do it.

 

[flamepony12]

Whenever we have to put a fish to sleep, we use the clove oil/freezer trick. Is it really inhumane? Because my mom has fancy goldfish, and knows a lot about them. Supposedly, The fish falls asleep from the clove oil before it has a chance to get that cold. Then it freezes in its sleep, so it doesn't get that burning sensation or the feeling of cold. IMO, I would never be able to handle smashing my fish with a hammer or cutting its head off.

 

[SRC]

The clove oil is the most humane way..IF you are not able to cut the fishes head off, or bash it's head. Some people just cannot do those things. No one is saying you can't kill the fish by freezing it...people are saying the fish will feel pain before it expires shoudl you choose that method.

Humane does not refer to "quick"..Humane regards the act being painless.

When they refer to a dog being "humanely" uthanized they mean they put it to sleep. If they did not "humanely" Uthanize they would simply bash the dogs head in or cut it's head off..it would kill the dog just the same...but seeing as they are pets..that's usually not done. And most importantly, if not done correctly and cleanly..will cause the animal pain before it expires...which is wrong. The point of Uthenasia is to end pain and suffering..not cause more.

Going to sleep is painless, freezing to death involves some level of pain. Even if that pain is only for a few minutes...think about the last time you got put on hold for 1-3 minutes...it feels like an eternity doesn't it? I would have to imagine freezing to death in 1-3 minutes would be agonizing.

I think us drowning would be comperable to the fish freezing...doesn't take long at all, usually between 1-3 minutes depending on how long you can hold your breathe, but would still hurt, on some level, nether-the-less.

 

[FalconStorm]

I agree that bashing the fish's head may be faster, but to be honest with you, my aim is horrible. I'd be likely to miss and just extend the death. Others just couldn't bring themselves to do it. In euthanasia, the emotions of those who love their pets must be taken into account as well. Whether the fish feels the pain of freezing or not, *I* feel it. The same goes for bashing the brain in. (Well, it wouldn't bother me so much but for my horrible aim.)

Think about this. Most of these fish are beloved pets. Two things already have the owner feeling horrible...one, that something is wrong with their fish that they cannot do anything about so they feel helpless, two, the simple loss of the fish. Add to that the fact that THEY have to kill this beloved pet and honestly, most people have never killed anything larger than a particularly large arachnid. THEY need the solace of knowing there is no pain for the fish as much as the fish needs to go peacefully.

Also, it takes time to prepare almost freezing water so that it is a temperature that will actually knock the fish out. It takes almost no time at all to prepare a clove oil solution. That time of suffering must be taken into account as well.