Dr Tim's One And Only Or Tetra Safe Start?

[Ch4rlie]

Daize - Ah I gotcha, assumed you meant filter media. 

 
Yes, I do have a bottle of ammonia that was made specifically for cycling aquariums.
Just means I need to calculate dosages more carefully since TTA's quote is for Dr Tim's own brand of ammonium chloride.
Hopefully there will be instructions either on website or on the bottle of Dr Tim's One and Only if I decide to go with this option.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Cha4rlie- Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride is being measured on the nitrogen scale. So he shows the level in ammonia-nitrogen. On an API test kit the 2 ppm that Dr. Tim references would be a higher reading. It would be about 2.56 ppm.
 
However, in other area's of his site he discusses adding ammonia-nitrogen to 2-3 ppm. This is basically on what the dosing recommended in the cycling article here is based. 3 ppm of ammonia on an API kit is equal to about 2.34 ppm of ammonia-nitrogen.
 
The biggest difference between Dr. Tim's method and the one here is his requires that one be able to perform diluted nitrite tests as he has one adding more snack sized doses with the warning not to let nitrite-nitrogen levels get over 5 ppm-nitrogen which would be 16.4 ppm on an API kit. And of course it stops at 5 ppm.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Honestly, I missed that part... but I believe (but could be wrong) that the bacteria colony can double in 12-24 hours under the proper conditions... slow by comparison to other bacteria.
 
 
So, two weeks should be sufficient time to rebuild a good size of your own colony - which is why you could safely remove a fair amount of your stuff without fear of an ammonia spike in the first place.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Eagles- no worries
Good to know though that filter bacteria can rebuild the colony fairly quickly, certainly inside of two weeks if your statement is accurate, will try to do bit of research into that.

But good to know I have that option to use should I decide to go that route.

TTA - as ever, a good detailed answer.
My worry now if I were to use those calculations, my API test kit does not make it easy for exact doses and readings as you quite correctly say the nitrite only goes to 5 ppm.

And trying to get 2.56 ppm ammonia not easy using the API colour card.

Using the API kit readings would be more guesswork as the API chart is colour coded and can be difficult to know accurate readings due to differing lighting conditions, your perception of colour readings etc etc

Hmm, new test kit perhaps on my shopping list?

 

[tunagirll]

How old is the child? It could be a good opportunity to get him invested in and learn about fish care. It will take at least a week for things to settle regardless of what media you use, so it could be a good time to get him involved in getting the tank ready, looking at what fish to put in, how to feed them, scientific names of fish, water testing etc. The more invested he is, the more likely that the fish will do well. It would also be a good lesson in delayed gratification for him.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Ch4rlie- go to 3 ppm on the API card. If you use Dr. Tim's to cycle, you  really only care about 2 readings 0 and not zero.
 
If you are seeding media, then follow the directions in the cycling article, especially the part that says:
 
If you can add gravel or filter media from a healthy cycled tank, it will accelerate the process. The more you can add, the more it will help. If you can do this, reduce the time between testing from every 3 days to every 2 days. Test on days 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. Then reduce the every 2 day testing to every day.
 
One benefit of using Dr Tim's One and only is you can be relatively certain of getting close to 100% of the needed bacteria into the tank. That is why is should take about a week to be fully cycled instead of 35-40 days.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I think am leaning to go towards with getting a bottle of Dr Tim's One and Only as this seems to be the quickest method of cycling a tank provided the instructions are followed correctly, only thing is am worried that my friend know absolutely NOTHING about fishkeeping and cycling tanks.
 
And it will be him that will be doing most of the work and testings, he lives about 30 mins drive from me and I won't be able to come over to his place every day to do checks on his tank for him.
 
I've never used Dr Tim's before so have no experience with that but do know however about cycling with mature media, but takes a bit longer and more testing and a basic knowledge of what to expect in terms of cycling.
 
Have given him the website for this forum and also the link for cycling a tank.
 
So question is now is which to use Dr Tim's or mature media from my tank, no longer keen on Tetra Safe Start so thats out of equation......

 

[Ch4rlie]

An opinion on above post would be good.

Going to see my friend tomorrow to help set everything up for him and his boy, boy is only 5 years old!

Dr Tim's One and Only?

Or

Mature filter media and gravel and plant cuttings?

 

[JAB]

An opinion on above post would be good.
Going to see my friend tomorrow to help set everything up for him and his boy, boy is only 5 years old!
Dr Tim's One and Only?
Or
Mature filter media and gravel and plant cuttings?

Why not use both?

I'm sure no harm will come other than speeding up the process!

Josh.

 

[Ch4rlie]

JAB - good point, but thinking now....
 
Thinking as am going to do my routine tank clean today and think may take out a couple handfuls gravel and replace with new, take a few trimmings of plants and do external filter clean as well so can take a handful of ceramic bio, if I can, i may take a small piece of filter foam/sponge as well.
 
That would give them a decent start of getting bacs needed
 
Friends new filter is sort of Fluval U2 type internal filter so does not need much bio media so thats easier for me not to take much from my filter.
 
Would it be ok to keep gravel, trimmings, and bio media in a bag in a bucket of old tank water overnight until can get to friends house in morning?
 
Will talk to him about getting Dr Tim's One and Only and see if he wants it as well if not then my mature media should be ok to start cycling the tank.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yup... that will work fine.  Honestly, with mature media, you don't have to worry much.   The bacteria are all there and already have their biofilms, unlike the bottled stuff.
 
They can reproduce very quickly to bolster the colony to the required readings.  And adding the mature media, you can still follow the basics of a fishless cycle.
 
Add ammonia to 2-3ppm.  But, unlike the other directions where you can wait 3 days before testing, you'd want to test in 24 hours.  Chances are very high that the ammonia levels will have dropped drastically - and that the nitrite values will still read zero (Because both bacs are ready and willing to process).  Once the ammonia drops to zero... redose to 3ppm.  Checking the nitrite to ensure that it is also being processed. 
 
Depending on the amount of media you bring, the bioload of your tank and the size of your friend's tank, it will probably be finished in a week, which means next weekend he and his son can go buy some fish!    But, will have a bit of background knowledge in testing so he'll know what to look for in the test tubes...
 
Best to make a mistake in the fishless cycle than with fish.  (And his son can help with the testing... my son was only 4 when we did a fishless cycle together.  His job was to count the drops to make sure I didn't screw it up... and I let him test the pH.)

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Actually, Dr Hovanec grows the bacteria on solid surfaces. That is why you need to shake the bottle. The bacteria comes in a biofilm attached to particles. The particles settle in the bottle, so you shake it to insure it is in solution and will all go into the tank.
 
There are the key differences between using seeding from a cycle tank and using Dr. Tim's product. They are the amount of bacteria, the "freshness" and then thr piruty of it.
 
In terms of the "freshness" this really refers to how fast the bacteria will be at full speed . When using seed material from espttablished tanks, the odds are really good those bacteria are in tip top shape and will be at full strength when they go in. With the bottle bacteria, the longer they have been in the bottle, the greater the lag there will be in getting up to strength. However, we are not talking a lot of time. A day at most. And this doesn't mean they wont be working during that time, just that they wont be a full capacity. As long as the bacteria has not been mishandled and is used within the prescribed time from bottling, it will work just fine.
 
The issue of how much bacteria is being used is the reverse situation. With the bottled, you know if you purchase the right amount, you should get the right amount. With seeding we have no idea how much bacteria is involved. It could be too little, just right or more than is needed. Only time will tell.
 
The purity issue may or may not be a concern. When one seeds a tank from another, there is no way to limit which bacteria moves over to just the nitrifyers. All the other bacteria in the bio-film and, to some extent, in the tank water, moves right along with it. So the potential to bring in nasties exists. The bottled products should not contain the nasty stuff.  An example of why this can be important is when you are getting a new and sensitive species and you want to bring it into an environment where there is as little potential for disease as possible. Bottled bacteria are the way to get such a receiving tank cycled whereas media etc. from a cycled tank would not be.

 

[Ch4rlie]

TTA and Eagles, thanks for your posts. Appreciated.
 
Good to know that the Dr Tim's One and Only is good stuff provided not mishandled or expired date. Since I've never used that bottled bacteria before, so not to sure if Iwould be doing things correctly therefore am a bit more confident with my own established media to seed their tank/filter so decided to use that as I know a bit more about that method.
 
So far, what I've done -
 
I've taken out a small handful of my ceramic bio media, I know I wont need a lot as their internal filter is sort of like a Fluval U2 type filter so there wont be a big space for these ceramic media. 
 
Have cut a piece of filter media as well, whether that piece of filter actually has bacteria or not, difficult to tell 

 
Couple of handful of gravel as well, there won't be much on those, but figured better than nothing.
 
Also taken a small square of floss as well.
 
And a couple small bits of plants if they want to do live plants but reckon they might be better with plastic plants to start with perhaps.
 
All of these are in a bucket of tank water, hopefully should be ok for overnight until morning. Do you think I should put in an airstone as well to have some sort of flow and aeration?
 
This is my first time am doing this for someone else's  tank and I feel nervous! Hope I don't do a balls up or anything stupid to jeopardise their tank cycle!
 
Have I missed anything or any other tips?
 
Have printed out the Cycling a Tank topic so can have this to hand to give to them to read thoroughly.
Got a bottle of ammonia they can use with a small syringe and dropper for measuring dosages.
Got my API GH & KH Test to test their tap water.
Have a few spare plastic plants they can have if they want them as well as some nice pebbles thats been washed thoroughly and vinegar tested.
Got a half decent book they can borrow "How to set up a Perfect Aquarium" by Jeremy Gay (yes, him who does PFK!)
 
We will also go to LFS to get a few things like API Liquid Test Kit, tap safe de-chlorinator, small net and bits and pieces they may need etc.
 
Wish me luck!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Looks good except one point. Filter floss is the worst media for bacteria in a filter. it is designed tiglog up by trapping solid wastes. This makes it a horrid home for bacteria. Basically. Moving over floss is barely better than doing no seeding at all.
 
Be sure to reduce the times between testing by one day as indicated at the emd of the article.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Good to know, will change that in my filter gradually .

Thanks for the help and advice.

Have now added all my media to friends tank and heater on and filter.

Looks good

Will do first water testing in a while to get first records.