Done with neon tetras, can you recommend other tankmates?

[outofwater]

These guys like acid water and lots and lots of plants. They are weaker now than though were and so you need to treat them with care, wrap them in cotton wool blankets

You crack me up @itiwhetu

So I went today, took the dead fish and got a store credit. All the neons were gone, a carcass was behind though, stuck on some fake plant decoration. I forgot to answer your question about how "planted" the tank is. The quarantine tank has a few floaters (duckweed and giant duckweed) plus some hemianthus callitricoides and other plant I forget the name of. And 3 small java ferns shoots.

I've been thinking of adding more ottos, and a pair of angels to complete the 29g stock. Still looking up if the angels might cause any conflict with the cories or the neons. Another option would be a school of harlequin rasboras, a few more ottos, and the pair of angels, but I'm still looking up as well if any of those would conflict with the existing fish or amongst themselves.

As was the original intent of this post (besides letting off steam due to the neon die off) I want to know what other fish I can add to the 29g tank.

 

[FishNturt808]

You crack me up @itiwhetu

So I went today, took the dead fish and got a store credit. All the neons were gone, a carcass was behind though, stuck on some fake plant decoration. I forgot to answer your question about how "planted" the tank is. The quarantine tank has a few floaters (duckweed and giant duckweed) plus some hemianthus callitricoides and other plant I forget the name of. And 3 small java ferns shoots.

I've been thinking of adding more ottos, and a pair of angels to complete the 29g stock. Still looking up if the angels might cause any conflict with the cories or the neons. Another option would be a school of harlequin rasboras, a few more ottos, and the pair of angels, but I'm still looking up as well if any of those would conflict with the existing fish or amongst themselves.

As was the original intent of this post (besides letting off steam due to the neon die off) I want to know what other fish I can add to the 29g tank.

The angels should be fine with the cories. At least they are in my set up. I don’t have any neons in there tho so I can’t say that combo will be ok. If the angels are added while they are still small enough the tetras aren’t a snack option then that could be your chance to make it work.

 

[Mcostas]

I had trouble with neons at first too. I finally have a stable batch of tetras in my 20 gallon. I have glolight tetras, black tetras and neons, the most being the neons.

It took me about 4 batches to get 13 sturdy ones that either didn't get sick and die, or at least responded to the treatment. The last one died because I think it ate too much of the algae chip I put in for the snail, for whatever reason they were in a piranha mood that day. I now sneak snail food in on one end and feed the tetras on the other side.

 

[outofwater]

I think I've made up my mind. I'll add a handful of ottos so that little guy can have some pals, then I'll get two young angels so they grow in the tank that already has everyone else established.

I've read that angels can be ok on their own (single) or that they do ok as well when paired. What's not 100% clear to me is whether the pairing must be male/female or can be either or. I don't want to dealnwith fighting angels as they grow, as I know they're territorial and can have an attitude.

Thank you

 

[Back in the fold]

Neon Tetras can be tricky. Most are pretty delicate but if you get them past a month / six weeks in your aquarium they are fine. All the ones I've ever had didn't really live long lives though. A one year old Neon is pretty old. I had 5 that I inherited from a disinterested Granddaughter last July and now I'm down to 2. All they will eat is newly hatched brine shrimp.

 

[Beastije]

I acclimate way longer than you(3 Hours or so) but that may be just personal preference. Angelfish and small fish is a mixed experience, sometimes it works, sometimes they eat them. Is recommended to have the smaller fish first ad have young angels to get used to them. But it works to some people.
Read about the pair/group too, is preferred to have more individuals and wait for them to make a pair than to force creating one. Apparently fish are as picky as people

 

[outofwater]

I acclimate way longer than you(3 Hours or so) but that may be just personal preference.

I'm kinda torn on the acclimation issue. I don't want to go Ivan Drago on these critters, nor do I think an extended period (like yours) makes a significant difference, then again as you said personal preferences and what works for one hobbyist doesn't necessarily go for another . Bottom line I think as someone else mentioned neon tetras are finicky to get started but once established they're overall hardy and relayively easy to keep, although the consensus seems to be that even when established a dramatic change in water conditions will affect them more that other fish.

Anywho... as for the angels... I'll wait another month or so, let my neons grow a bit more, maybe get the ottos in between, and then find a pair of young, small angels that will grow in this tank.

I've read that indeed you can't "force" the pairing, so I'll be sure to take a long look and wait things out and check at least two or 3 stores to see their stock and conditions. If anything this hobby had taught me so far, it is patience.

 

[Byron]

As some others have mentioned, angelfish are a real risk here. I do not recommend angelfish for this tank for several reasons.

At a mature length of six inches (body) and a vertical fin span of 8 inches, a 29g is vey cramped. And this makes life for the other fish more difficult as the angels mature.

Angelfish are shoaling fish; the shoals or groups are much smaller than with species in the characins, but they are still shoaling fish. In the natural habitat, the group will form an hierarchy. The dominant male will select a female from the group and they will (probably) spawn. The subordinate fish know well enough to stay clear, and in the habitat they can, and do. Each "pair" that forms will have its territory without any "overlap." But in the aquarium, this immediately causes problems because most home tanks are no where near adequate space the way we tend to pack in the fish.

A dominant male might well kill any other angelfish, including the female put in with him, if they do not accept each other and bond. Other fish in the tank will be seen as intruders, and the allomones these fish all release adds to their stress. If you can acquire a "pair" that shows signs of having accepted one another and bonded, you can have success. But even bonded pairs have been known to suddenly divorce.

The only way to obtain a "pair"--and this is not guaranteed--is to have a tank of 12+ and let them pair off, then net out your "pair." This not only applies to angelfish, but to the ram species. And [probably many other cichlids too.

 

[outofwater]

Angelfish are shoaling fish; the shoals or groups are much smaller than with species in the characins, but they are still shoaling fish.

The reading I've done the last couple of days seems contradictory. Some, like you @Byron clearly say these do better in numbers, others indicate that they do well alone as a showcase piece on community tanks. I do want something that pops (thought a big enough school of neons would do), I also thought a few dwarf gouramis would but the first one I got turned put to be a psycho who likes to be by himself (follows after me, I suppose) and if get a single angel I don't want to stunt the fish or cause it to go nuts one day because he's stressed by being alone all the time. So... is that your definitive answer? These guys must be in groups to thrive?

 

[Byron]

The reading I've done the last couple of days seems contradictory. Some, like you @Byron clearly say these do better in numbers, others indicate that they do well alone as a showcase piece on community tanks. I do want something that pops (thought a big enough school of neons would do), I also thought a few dwarf gouramis would but the first one I got turned put to be a psycho who likes to be by himself (follows after me, I suppose) and if get a single angel I don't want to stunt the fish or cause it to go nuts one day because he's stressed by being alone all the time. So... is that your definitive answer? These guys must be in groups to thrive?

First, I consider the best environment for any fish to be what it "expects" because this is part of its genetic blueprint and the fish species has evolved for however many thousands of years to function best in such an environment. There is no doubt that fish maintained in an aquarium that provides the closest replication of the natural habitat for that species will be better adjusted, significantly less stressed, and thus healthier. This species, Pterophyllum scalare, was included in a study of the aggressive (and other) ramifications of the numbers in the group. A link to this study is below, if interested.

You will never find this species in anything but a small (relatively) shoal in their habitat. That really ends the discussion as to what the fish thinks it needs and what it should be provided with to be "healthy." Having said that, we move to the next aspect of this issue, the home aquarium.

A male betta can and will live its normal lifespan (so far as I have been able to ascertain) in a cup of water on the shelf. Does that mean we ignore its inherent expectations and needs and keep it this way? Thrive and survive are not the same.

You asked, "So... is that your definitive answer? These guys must be in groups to thrive?" And my answer is without any question, yes. But note, specific breeding is another aspect, and I am only dealing with the natural requirements for this species to live well. Dr. Loiselle, an authority on cichlids, is cited in my signature block: "It is inhumane to deprive any animal of an element it regards as critical to its well-being, and totally naive to expect normal behavior in its absence."

 

[outofwater]

You asked, "So... is that your definitive answer? These guys must be in groups to thrive?" And my answer is without any question, yes.

Fair and clear enough. I know the difference between "living" and "thriving".

I'd never knowingly put any living, let alone sentient being, in just "living" conditions.
Thanks!!

 

[Byron]

Fair and clear enough. I know the difference between "living" and "thriving".

I'd never knowingly put any living, let alone sentient being, in just "living" conditions.
Thanks!!

My apology, I forgot the link earlier, here is the paper.

https://www.academia.edu/download/50054534/The_effect_of_group_size_on_the_behaviou20161102-6716-1m0ezpq.pdf

 

[dR3ws3r]

https://www.academia.edu/download/50054534/The_effect_of_group_size_on_the_behaviou20161102-6716-1m0ezpq.pdf

That link doesn't work for me fwiw. Says oops i'm in the wrong aisle Error 404. I'd be interested in reading it, but maybe I need an account or something?

 

[Byron]

That link doesn't work for me fwiw. Says oops i'm in the wrong aisle Error 404. I'd be interested in reading it, but maybe I need an account or something?

I've had this occur previously, no idea (not very good with electronic gadgetry). Open Google Scholar, enter the title and first author, should work.
The effect of group size on the behaviour and welfare of four fish species commonly kept in home aquaria, Amelia Saxby et al.

 

[dR3ws3r]

I've had this occur previously, no idea (not very good with electronic gadgetry). Open Google Scholar, enter the title and first author, should work.
The effect of group size on the behaviour and welfare of four fish species commonly kept in home aquaria, Amelia Saxby et al.

Thanks. I can only see the abstract though, or I would have to purchase it. I am interested, but not that interested.