Does The Loch-ness Monster Exist?

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Joemuz

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Does the Loch-Ness monster exist??
Couldnt resist this question, post your reasons for your theory please.
I belive there isnt a monster as it couldnt of survived for the amount of time it has been talked about and there would of been some more reliably evidence than passers by seeing monster like shapes. I would like to hope there is such a thing as the Loch-Ness monster but i highly doubt it .

Cheers, Joemuz
 
Yes, cause Scotland is cool and needs a monster.
 
In best scientific section fashion, anyone who does really believe that the Loch-Ness monster exists needs to bring proof to the table. Seeing as all the proof to date has been sketchy at best, no, there isn't a Loch Ness monster.
 
No. I believe the original photographer admitted it was fake; the proceeding cases were people just trying to get money. I'm sure something like that lives somewhere; but I don't think it's a big mystery nor would it hurt humans.
 
No. I believe the original photographer admitted it was fake; the proceeding cases were people just trying to get money. I'm sure something like that lives somewhere; but I don't think it's a big mystery nor would it hurt humans.
In addition to what Bignose says, I feel that since this is the scientific section, anyone who believes the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist also needs to present at least some evidence to try and prove their point :).

On a side note, while I agree cryptozoology is a very interesting study, the 'Scientific Section' ("for discussion of advanced fish keeping issues, and theories") is still a subform of the 'Aquarium Forums' and debates over mega-fauna cryptids like the Loch Ness monster don't really relate to our aquariums or advanced fish keeping issues/theories all too much, at this point in time anyway ;).
 
In addition to what Bignose says, I feel that since this is the scientific section, anyone who believes the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist also needs to present at least some evidence to try and prove their point :).

No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. This is not how science works. If you have a theory, you have to bring me the proof that your theory works. I don't have to do out and disprove your idea.

three-fingers, I have an invisible elf that lives in my backyard, prove me wrong. See how ridiculous of a statement that is? See how ridiculous of a statement "Well, you can't prove me wrong about my invisible elf, so therefore it must exist" is? it is exactly the same thing is asking those of us who don't believe in the Loch Ness monster to disprove it.

[begin silliness] Besides, my invisible elf buddy told me Nessie moved out, she lives in Lake Michigan now, she likes the Chicago nightlife better. [end silliness]

p.s. If the smiley face was supposed to indicate that your statements were all in jest, it wasn't enough, at least to me. As a practicing scientist, I do take these issues pretty seriously.
 
No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. This is not how science works. If you have a theory, you have to bring me the proof that your theory works. I don't have to do out and disprove your idea.
Honestly, I do remember reading that from you before, and I remember completely agreeing with you...but in reality the meaning has probably flown over my head because now I'm a bit confused... -_- .
three-fingers, I have an invisible elf that lives in my backyard, prove me wrong.
I thought that similarly, a statement like "I don't have an invisible elf in my backyard", could be construed as a theory, and as such the poster would need to bring evidence as proof that this theory is true.
See how ridiculous of a statement that is? See how ridiculous of a statement "Well, you can't prove me wrong about my invisible elf, so therefore it must exist" is? it is exactly the same thing is asking those of us who don't believe in the Loch Ness monster to disprove it.
But to come to any conclusion from a debate, shouldent both sides put forward evidence to represent their case? My answer to "Well, you can't prove me wrong about my invisible elf, so therefore it must exist" would be "That doesn't mean it exists, that simply means there is no agreed conclusion".
p.s. If the smiley face was supposed to indicate that your statements were all in jest, it wasn't enough, at least to me. As a practicing scientist, I do take these issues pretty seriously.
Not at all, I usually use the winky smiley face to convey jest, I use the one that's just smiling to convey that I'm not feeling annoyed or likewise in a case where I think the overall tone of my post may make it seem so :). Not a sure-fire method though (as this case demonstrates)...and maybe I need to review it's personal use, in this forum anyway :good: .
 
Its impossible for an animal that large to exist in that lake. The lack is VERY deep and relatively oxygen poor. As such, there are very little micro organisms for which to feed on. That also means that the loch is relativity fish poor if the supposed animal is pescivorous. I mean that is the final death blow to the animal. There are just no biomass to support such a large animal. However, there were in the scotland historically fresh water seals, Im sure that in ancient times spurred legends of monsters living in those foreboding lakes. :nod:
 
No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. This is not how science works. If you have a theory, you have to bring me the proof that your theory works. I don't have to do out and disprove your idea.
Honestly, I do remember reading that from you before, and I remember completely agreeing with you...but in reality the meaning has probably flown over my head because now I'm a bit confused... -_- .

The meaning of the statement is relatively straightforward. That when someone comes up with an idea, it is the job of the supporters to find the evidence that supports their theory. It is not the job of the people who don't believe it to disprove the theory. Now, in a few special cases, it may end up working like that, but those are rare and far between.

Let me give you a few examples. This Loch Ness thread is a good start. Nessie has never been seen. At least not by anything reliable. So, the logical conclusion is that she doesn't exist. If someone wants to argue that she does exist, they need to bring conclusive evidence to the table. Without evidence, science has to go on logics and what evidence there is. All the reliable evidence to date shows that she doesn't exist. Could science be wrong? You betcha! But one of the things scientists do is process all of the information available and make the most sound (best supported by evidence) conclusion.

Let me give you an example from physics and cosmology. There are a small group of people who believe that the Universe is inherently electric. That the sun's core is iron, that comets carry charge, that deep space plasma is the universe's equivalent to our copper wire. And, here's the kicker, if you just take a cursory look at the ideas, they kind of make sense. But, science takes a deeper look and finds that is just isn't true. There are pretty good estimates of what the sun is made of -- the sun has quakes just like on earth, and considering how the earth and the other planets move around her, we have a good idea of her mass. Actual experiments done on comets has shown no significant charge. A big one is that the mathematics from assuming an electric universe just don't predict what is observed. So, science rejects that proposal, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth of its supporters.

As another example from physics, there have been no less than 5 "string theories" offered up in the literature. Which one is right? Are any of them right? This is a case where there is some disproving going on -- because the physicists work through the mathematics of each of the 5 models and look for inconsistencies or errors in them. But, the reason 5 exist is that they all do an equally decent job at prediction. But, all 5 cannot be right since they aren't the same. In fact, string theory itself may not be right.

Here is an example that is pretty much unresolved. Does having a death penalty act as a crime deterrent? There is evidence on both sides of this story. Some, like two neighboring states with similar population makes up (racially and wealth-wise), one state with the death penalty, one without, show no difference. But, some states with the death penalty show a significant decrease in crime. This is one where there is evidence on both sides, and really, both sides need to keep gathering evidence to support their beliefs. What are the other possible reasons the crime rate was lower in that last state I mentioned? What kind of crimes were the death penalty being applied to in the first two states? Are the criminals really thinking "I would want to kill that other person, but if I get caught, they'll probably kill me too"? A significant number of murders are crimes of passion, i.e. you come home to find your wife in bed with the mailman and you kill them both. During that passion, you aren't thinking about anything at all except revenge. Like I said at the beginning of this paragraph, this one is pretty much unresolved.

As a final example, I'll come back to fishkeeping. It has long been thought that ich has a dormant stage. After all, there was evidence to believe it was so. Well-maintained fishtanks, that were ich free for months would suddenly get an outbreak again, with no warning. Many books and magazines warn that ich can be dormant and that all fish are carriers so ich can pop up at any time (so be prepared). Or, ich is in pretty much all water. Well, it turnout that was "utter rubbish" in the words of Peter Burgess. Burgess did his PhD thesis work studying ich. He, and several other researchers have studied many different strains of ich, and never once found a dormant stage. There was ich that doesn't break off of the fish's body, ich that can survive above 95 degrees F, ich that is resistant to a lot of medication, but all of the ich never once had a dormant stage. Part of the confusion causing the original thinking was two fold: Firstly, marine keepers deal with a parasite similar to ich called crypto that does indeed have a dormant stage. So, a little confusion or blurring between the two may have lead to some people just assuming because the marine ich-like parasite has a dormant stage, so does ich. But, the real source was the people who only medicated long enough for the spots to come off. If only medicate for 3 days, you decimate ich's population. 99% or more probably die. But, if you let even one ich live, the population has a chance to grow back, and that takes time. The fish can be asymptomatic carriers for a long time before showing spots, and then several months after the last outbreak, it's back. And it seemed like it went into a dormant phase. Or, a new fish that wasn't quarantined long enough could have been the carrier, even though the new fish was introduced several months prior. The newer evidence shows that the old evidence was mistaken. Could ich actually have a dormant phase? It certainly could, but as far as I know one has never been identified in the scientific literature.

------------------------------------

Here is a big reason why supporters have to bring evidence to the table. Because, what they are in effect saying is "I didn't being any proof, but you can't disprove me either, so let's pick my theory as right." Out of all the possible theories that can't be disproved, why should we pick yours? Again, let's use this Loch Ness example: Why does it have to be some sort of animal living there? Maybe it's a ghost dinosaur? (Believe it or not, I've actually heard this theory put forth -- and look at the genius of how unable to be disproved it is -- it's a ghost so you wont be able to find it on radar or via other detection methods) Maybe it's a submarine made by dwarves, or by mole people, or by the molten rock men who live in the core of the earth, or...? Maybe its a secret government military base built to look like an animal to fool people. I could go on. Any of these are equally valid, and all equally unsupported by evidence. Why should any one of these be picked over another? There is no reason, since they are all unsupported by evidence.

If evidence doesn't support your idea, but your idea can't be disproved either, why was your idea so special. Out of all the possible choices, how did you happen to get the one right answer? Especially without evidence? Chances are very, very slim that you happened to guess the one right answer without any evidence to support your idea.

This is why evidence has to be brought forward to support your idea, and people who don't believe you, do not have to disprove you. Science just doesn't work that way. Science works in the way that if you want people to believe your theory, your ideas, you need to bring evidence that shows you are correct to the discussion. Science does not have to entertain every wild notion until they are proved wrong. Science rejects any proposal without evidence until evidence is brought to the table.
 
Very interesting stuff, especially the bit about ich - that's pretty useful information, thanks.

I think I understand now, basically, nobody ever needs to prove anything doesn't happen, or doesn't exist apart from in rare exceptional situations when it may seem like that, like maybe somebody challenging that we don't breath air (after seeing presented evidence that we do), since that would mean the lungs are doing something else and they would have to provide evidence for this?

Like with 'aquarium salt', people who don't believe it has the stated effects don't need to prove this, the people who believe it does need to prove their case.

Sorry you had to make such a long post to explain something that now seems so simple, but thanks for taking the time to do so.
 
Like with 'aquarium salt', people who don't believe it has the stated effects don't need to prove this, the people who believe it does need to prove their case.

This is a very good example. If someone wants to believe salt does have the effects the supports claim, they need to show evidence. There are a lot of people who toss some salt into their tanks almost like a magic charm, or because someone once told them that "all fish need a little salt". The box of aquarium salt itself says that -- but then again, of course it does, because they want to sell you something. Meaningful evidence about salt would include how the slat interacts with the fish itself. How the salt interacts with the parasites or other bugs the salt is trying to kill/prevent. Meaningful evidence also would be a study comparing if fish who had the same disease, one group of fish that are treated with chemical x (whatever it may be) and the other group treated with salt, how much better or worse does the salt do? But, just assuming salt does have healing or curing or beneficial properties just because it cannot be proven that salt doesn't have these properties, is not science.

Instead of aquarium salt, say I told everybody I put olive oil (or cat hair, or marinara sauce, or ... you get the idea) in my tanks and the fish are better. I think that anyone who read that statement would pretty much demand proof from me -- i.e. the fish are better how? Did I compare the olive oiled fish to a control group? What does the olive oil actually do in the water or to the fish? The onus would be on me to answer these questions before you would believe in olive oil, right? You wouldn't believe me until it got proven wrong would you? I hope not.

p.s. I did not mind typing all that. This is the scientific section, and discussing how science works is a very important part of this section. There is a lot of science in fishkeeping, and unfortunately a lot of unscientific myths in fishkeeping as well. A lot of people have lost or never had skepticism, and take the word of people way too quickly. A good scientist always asks for the evidence, is always skeptical. And, if the members who read these forums become better scientists, by not just taking someone's post on the forum at face value, by not taking a webpage at face value, definitely by not taking a company's word at face value (because a company always wants to sell you something), then this section of the forum is a success.
 
As far as Loch Ness is concerned, I'm not going to suggest for a moment that a gigantic monster lives in it's depths -- but it's conceivable that something unknown does. Perhaps a shoal of small creatures could explain some of the circumstantial evidence surrounding the Loch.

For instance, a large branchiopod named Leptodora was discovered relatively recently. It had gone unnoticed for a long time because it's body is so transparent that it's shadow is more visible than the organism itself! Ditto, the submarine ecosystems around hydrothermal vents and cold seeps were discovered as recently as 50 years ago (give or take).

Loch Ness itself is still a murky and relatively unexplored body of isolated inland water. It seems possible that something remains to be discovered there. Probably not a "monster" though.


Of course, I mean no disrespect. My own scientific approach is to accept that anywhere that doubt exists, one must assume that either possibility could concievably be the case unless a definitive argument can be made for or against. This is exactly why so many theories exist in cosmology in an attempt to explain gravitation. None can be conclusively proven, and therefore, all should be treated as possible solutions until overwhelming (if not necessarily definitive) evidence can be brought forward. As a scientist, this is my stance on the matter. :)
 
There is no way to prove something doesn't exist. If it isn't there how can you prove it (the invisible elf). But you can prove something does exist if you have the photos or live proof making it obvious that it does. In a somewhat general way, it's pretty much the same as our court system where a person is considered innocent until poven guilty. They don't have to prove their innocence but a prosecutor has to gather enough evidence to prove their guilt.
 
bignoseC said:
p.s. I did not mind typing all that. This is the scientific section, and discussing how science works is a very important part of this section. There is a lot of science in fishkeeping, and unfortunately a lot of unscientific myths in fishkeeping as well. A lot of people have lost or never had skepticism, and take the word of people way too quickly. A good scientist always asks for the evidence, is always skeptical. And, if the members who read these forums become better scientists, by not just taking someone's post on the forum at face value, by not taking a webpage at face value, definitely by not taking a company's word at face value (because a company always wants to sell you something), then this section of the forum is a success.

...and this is why I left this thread in here...not because of the question, but, to develop an idea of scientific discussion. Funny, how, this post, actually is useful here as a first good example. HOWEVER..if Bigfoot shows up, it's deleted.

Cheers. SH
 
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