Do I Need A Nutrient Substrate / Ferts?

[Underwurlde]

OK. Have a read this recent thread that came up if you have time:
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=211181
(His was an EI tank, so just ignore the CO2 stuff and my realization that I was 6 months out on the CO2 in-tank indicator 'Drop Checker' info - not relevant here.

Follow the suggestions in there to first rid your tank of the exisiting algae problem before attempting to start again if I were you.

Now I think the most pleasing setup is 'El Natural', because of its simplicity and extreme low maintenance and low cost. You can use a professional substrate for this, but the ultimate in my mind, is simple: Dig some soil up & use that! A very difficult concept to get one's mind around though: Soil! In MY tank!! No way!!!

I did. Just what nature intended and just what the plants get!

However, it takes some time to condition the soil - you have to dig it up, sift all the bits out, add a bit of gravelly sand & compost and then let it soak for about a month so that any ammonia etc. can leech out (as you would do for AquaSoil). Many ppl can't be bothered with this and just bought some 'proper' stuff.

Andy

 

[Luketendo]

Oh stuff it I think i'll just wait it out and go the hybrid way.

 

[Underwurlde]

LOL. One thing I tell ppl: If you think keeping fish is difficult, steer well clear of plants!!!!

 

[Luketendo]

Yeah I guess that's it, thanks.

Sorry for being downhearted at the moment i'm really depressed at the moment.

 

[SuperColey1]

Is very true.

My planted 125Ltr has cost me £1000+ to set up so far. The I am about to strip it down and do a new scape. another £150+

The 35Ltr Nano I am planning for next March time I have setup a budget of £250 total for the tank, substrate, lights, heater, filter and plants.

This one is going to be following Tom's hybrid theory.

Fish are cheap. Plants are cheap. Kepping fish and plants healthy aint cheap.

Andy

 

[garuf]

This one is going to be following Tom's hybrid theory.


Andy

have I missed something? toms hybrid theory? has that barr fellow come up with another great idea?

 

[Underwurlde]

It is what I have called a 'hybrid' because it is actually an extension of an existing idea by Diana Walstad and her 'El Natural' approach to fish keeping: You take a soil substrate (dig it up from your back garden!), condition it (soak it for a monthish), heavily plant, and bung some fish in that you feed well. The fish poo & pee feed the substrate, the substrate feeds the plants. Carbon is gained via natural processes as well (such as ariel growth). Oh and change 50% of the water once every 6 months or so & never vac the substrate! Oh and such tanks can be run without a filter (because the plants do this). Plants & fish are happy in this natural environment - the plants grow slowly so only minimal lighting / direct sunlight is required.

Tom's EI approach to keeping plants is as opposite to that as you can get. You give the plants exactly what they need for explosive growth: Mega lights -> injected CO2, all the ferts (dosed daily). You keep the science to a minimum by 'resetting' the tank via 50% weekly water changes. It is relatively therefore more expensive to set up and high mantenance - costant dosing, plant monitoring and trimming.

Tom then hit on another idea, that was to combine the two ideas (hence my use of the term 'hybrid') keeping the priciples of 'El Natural' but increase plant growth slightly: i.e. slightly more light -> Carbon (in the form of Excel) -> weekly dose of ferts -> Monthly small 10-25% water change to reset.

The combined approach sat better with shall we say modern fishkeepers because the idea of never vac'ing the substrate, never water changing, filters unnecessary, soil from the garden! as a substrate was just a bit too much to take on board as a leap of faith!

Note that I used the term 'hybrid' but I don't think that is a generally accepted term for this approach.

Andy

 

[Luketendo]

I should be only changing water once I month? I usually do 15% every week. Also how long should light be on?

 

[SuperColey1]

So do most but the idea of thes tank is that the pollutants that people do their water changes for are actually used by the plants.

Therefore over time the plants do the cleaning/filtering for you.

If you do water changes you remove the nutrients and the plants starve hence algae.

With EI we only do water changes because this method involves adding surplus nutrient and the 50% water change each week 'resets' the tank.

With Tom's 'hybrid' he does however say that filters are needed for the circulation to be goodto spread the nutrient.

Andy

 

[Luketendo]

So what light scheme and maintenance do I do to carry out?

I currently have light on for like 9 hours with a 2 hour gap in the middle, I think it's 9.5 hours with a 2.5 hour gap.
Every week I do a 15% water change and clean the external (Fluval 104) foam pads.

 

[SuperColey1]

So what light scheme and maintenance do I do to carry out?

I currently have light on for like 9 hours with a 2 hour gap in the middle, I think it's 9.5 hours with a 2.5 hour gap.
Every week I do a 15% water change and clean the external (Fluval 104) foam pads.

To answer your question:

The light choice WPG is yours to choose dependent on what you want from the tank.

If you want superfast growth and loads of maintenance pruningwise then high WPG but this means you must have CO2 injection and fert dosing. Use the EI method or PPS or similar approach.

If you want moderate growth then keep the lights under 2WPG. This method can be used without CO2 and fertilisation is dependant on which approach you use i.e. Toms thread or the Diana Walstad aproach etc.

If you want very slow growth then keep the lights lower than 1.5WPG and use low light plants.

As for thelight timings there are many different approaches but the 'siesta' you are using in the centre of your photperiod is not very natural for fish.
This idea is normally associated with DIY/Yeast CO2 setups where the siesta 'can' let the CO2 build up again if you can't get a constant 30ppm.

If you're not using CO2 then it will not help.

anything between 8-12 hours is OK. Watch your plants. They will retract theirleaves when they have had enough for the day and then you can base your light around this.

I run an EI high tec tank and often wish it wasn't as the pruning is a weekly job or it becomes like a lake that is filled with weeds.
I run my lights at 3 hours at 0.6WPG then 6 hours at 2.5WPG then a further 3 hours at 0.6WPG to simulate (as best I can)
Dawn-Daylight-Dusk.
This 6 hours is enough for my plants and by the end of the 6 hours they tend to pull their leaves in a little.
I dose NPK on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and TPN Trace on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
The tank has pressurised injection.

With this method one thing missing (N,P,K,Trace or CO2) and the tank gets algified within days!!!!

With a lowlight Non CO2 tank the plants grow slower BUT so does algae. Therefore you have more room for error because you have more time to act i.e. remove the algaeordecide on a new course of action.

Therefore I would suggest you either follow Toms approac or Diana Walstad's and go for a Non CO2 tank.

Choice as always is yours.

Andy

 

[Luketendo]

Hmm well i'm going for the Hybrid thing which is NPK + Excel with 2.1 WPG etc etc.

I'd like to run my lighting 7am-7pm as thats how it works at the moment with the siesta. If this is too much I might run it 9am-7pm or 11am-7pm instead and feed my fish in the afternoon rather than the morning.

Still not sure on the maintenance though I suppose I should do my normal 10-15 liters (17-25%) water changes every month or so and If problems arouse (i.e. cloudiness, high nitrate and stuff) increase it. Then I could clean the filter every month when I do the water changes, and I'd test my water every week.

I also suppose I just dose Excel as it says on the bottle? NPK I'll dose a pinch a week.

 

[Underwurlde]

If you are going for straight on / off lighting I'd go for something like 10hr period.

If as Andy suggests above you use a bright period in the middle of a lower lighting period (1 bulb on, 2 bulbs on, 1 bulb on kind of thing), then up this to 12 to even 14 hrs. This approach I think has a proven track record and just sits right in my mind as it tries to emualte nature somewhat.

For the Excel dosing, I think you add a little extra than that recommended, i.e. half as much again. Oh, & it may not be mentioned on the bottle, but dose it in the MORNING, ready for a day's use by the plants, otherwise it is pretty much useless I think (I could be wrong).

Andy

PS, high nitrates are good in this scenario, but consider anything above 100ppm worrisome

 

[Luketendo]

If you are going for straight on / off lighting I'd go for something like 10hr period.

If as Andy suggests above you use a bright period in the middle of a lower lighting period (1 bulb on, 2 bulbs on, 1 bulb on kind of thing), then up this to 12 to even 14 hrs. This approach I think has a proven track record and just sits right in my mind as it tries to emualte nature somewhat.

For the Excel dosing, I think you add a little extra than that recommended, i.e. half as much again. Oh, & it may not be mentioned on the bottle, but dose it in the MORNING, ready for a day's use by the plants, otherwise it is pretty much useless I think (I could be wrong).

Andy

PS, high nitrates are good in this scenario, but consider anything above 100ppm worrisome

I'm stuck on lighting as I don't know how to upgrade it, I only have one 15W slot in my hood and don't know how to upgrade.

 

[nry]

You may be able to screw/bolt an additional tube into your hood, you'd need a starter unit and tube plus reflector ideally. What tank and hood do you have?