Disaster, Losing too many fish at once

[CarloM12]

So, for a few weeks now I have been randomly losing fish one or two at a time constantly. I have a great deal of experience in the hobby, been doing it for almost 10 years, and I have a 125-gallon community tank that consists of platys, Roseline sharks, gold Severums, angelfish, tetras, danios, rainbows, and clown loaches. I also own a 75-gallon stingray grow out tank with three small Motoro stingrays and 3 large silver dollars. I do 30% water changes once a week on both tanks, and everything goes well for the most part. Except for recently, when I purchased 5 rainbow sharks from my LFS, which is the place where I always buy my fish, nowhere else. so after a few days, 3 of these rainbow sharks die after breathing heavily, and I was surprised. Then I come home to 5 other fish dead including a clown loach on the bottom, no reason why. I assume it is because the rainbow sharks are beating my fish up and each other, because at my LFS they were in a tank with African cichlids and I'm good friends with the owner and he told me that he found dead Africans and dead Rainbow sharks constantly, and they have UV Sterilizers on all their tanks. so I removed the two and put them into a quarantine tank with a divider, and within two more days, they are both dead. So then I thought the problem was solved, until two days later I get another one and another one, and today I got another one and I couldn't take it anymore. There are no parasitic signs, none whatsoever, no white poop, no ick no nothing. It just happens whenever it feels like it, fish will gasp and that's it. My water is always 0 ammonia and nitrite, 10-20 nitrates, you know the deal. I would like to think they brought and parasite into my tank, but I can't even tell. I was looking at some of the fish to see if there is any sort of gill fluke worm type thing, nothing.


I switched from African cichlids to this tank cause I thought it would be less stressful cause no aggression, but no it still gives me problems. And before you ask if there are any bullies, I've had the severums in there for a very long time, they don't bother anything and they are still juveniles. Most of the time it is the smaller fish that die on me, I never get anything over 3 inches in my tank that dies.If someone can help me think about the possible scenarios, that would be great. The tank that I've had the most success with seems to be the stingray tank I have, that tank I have never had a single problem. At one point I had discus in the 125 as well, but believe it or not they were constantly fighting with each other and I lost many of those due to fighting and fighting only until I had to sell all of them to a few different friends.

 

[Julieann Cambridge]

Do you add air bubbles in your tank?Is there any other physical symptoms?

 

[Colin_T]

First thing is NEVER buy a fish out of a tank if there are dead fish in it or I fish have been dying in it. It doesn't matter if you know the shop owners and they say the fish are fine. If a fish has died in that tank anytime in the last week, then don't get anything from that tank.

The shop's U/V steriliser has been keeping the disease organisms at low levels but the parasites have been building up in sufficient numbers to kill their fish and now you have the problem in your tank.

Rainbow sharks do not kill African rift lake cichlids. Whilst rainbow sharks are territorial they only chase other fish away from their garden. They are vegetarian and feed on algae and plant matter. They have a territory, which they defend so they can keep their food source. Unfortunately in an aquarium where the fish are fed regularly, they still establish territories even tho they have ample food.

If you plan on keeping rainbow sharks, make sure each one has about 2 feet of space and if possible get 1 male and 1 or 2 females. Males have a black edge to their anal fin.

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Gill flukes do not kill fish quickly. They live on and in the gill filaments and slowly suck the blood out of the fish. And they cause scar tissue and damage to the gills and the fish suffocate. Common signs of gill flukes includes breathing heavily and gasping at the surface or sitting near the filter outlet where there is more oxygen. Flared gills are sometimes seen but not always.

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I would be doing bigger water changes than you do. I like to do 50-75% water changes and complete gravel cleans every week. Big water changes dilute nutrients more than small water changes. They also dilute pathogens more.

Watch the stingrays bellies, if they show any pink colour then the water is not up to scratch and you need to do a big water change and gravel clean.

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Are any of the fish rubbing on objects in the tank?

Shine a torch on the fish and see if there is any gold reflection or sheen to their bodies. If there is, the fish have Oodinium (velvet) and will need treating. They could also have a gill fungus, but my money is on velvet.

Wipe the inside of the glass down and then do a 90% water change and complete gravel clean. Clean your filter too. This will dilute any disease organisms in the tank and help buy you some time to figure out what the problem is and treat it.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

The best way to treat Oodinium is with copper but that is not good for catfish or loaches and definitely not good for stingrays. I mention them because this problem could get into their tank too if you feed one tank before the other or use the same equipment (nets, etc) on both tanks.

A safe way to treat velvet is to raise the tank temperature to 30C and keep it there for 2 - 3 weeks. Turn the tank lights off during this unless you have plants, in which case reduce the light so it keeps the plants alive but minimise it as much as possible. Oodinium can photosynthesise so less light means less food for the parasite.

Increase aeration and surface turbulence as much as possible. Higher temperatures mean les oxygen in the water, and with breathing problems you want to maximise O2 levels in the water to reduce long term damage.

If fish are still dying after 2 weeks of heat treatment then it is most likely a gill fungus and not velvet.

 

[CarloM12]

here's the funny thing, I've been using the hose for the water change on both tanks and no issues. And I already told you, I checked for every single parasite, there is nothing on the fish, no velvet. Gill fungus I don't see anything either. I am going to post a video on youtube for you to see both my tanks. My water is never a problem, I actually take out almost 50% on the stingray tank, but the other tank does not need that, it just doesn't have that many fish. I feel as though it could be some gill parasite, but I don't like assuming things and then treating for nothing. Also, I think this is not the issue, but I recently 3 days before I had the problems, got these two plants in the reptile section at Petsmart. They had nothing on them, and I doubt it's the reason for the few killings. They are only plastic.

 

[Colin_T]

The only way you can identify a gill fungus is to kill a fish and put its gill filament under a microscope. This will also show up flukes and other parasites. You can do it to a fish that just died or kill a healthy fish and do it. Personally I would try heat treatment before killing the fish to stick under a microscope.

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Velvet can be very hard to spot until the fish are covered in it. The parasites can be on the gills and not be visible on the body in large enough numbers to see. Shining a torch on dark coloured fish can often show a gold sheen and that is a sign they are infected.

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Plastic plants will not cause this unless the plants were contaminated with something and that is unlikely. And the fact the shop had been losing fish before you got them, would suggest a disease/ parasite rather than poisoning.

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You can try adding salt to the tank. Add 1 heaped tablespoon of rock salt, sea salt or swimming pool salt to every 20 litres of tank water. Keep salt level at this for 2-4 weeks, but at least 2 weeks after the fish stop dying.

Do a really big water change and gravel clean before adding salt. This will dilute any harmful pathogens in the water and give you a couple of days to try and work out what is going on.

Turn the temperature up to 30C and keep it there for 2-3 weeks. Increase aeration and surface turbulence.

Salt will kill gill flukes and many protozoans. Heat (30C) will kill Oodinium.

If you do this you won't have to add any medications and it should at the very least give you a few days to try and figure out what is happening. And at best it will fix the problem.

 

[CarloM12]

Thanks you man you are very knowledgeable. However I still don’t think it’s velvet, I will try the salt, but will that affect the clown loaches? Does the salt have to be done with the water change, and my tank is already set at 80-82 so how much hotter does it need to be. Also, here is the video, excuse the quality, it needs to get better.

 

[Colin_T]

30c = 86F

That level of salt will not affect the clown loaches or any other fish you have. It is even safe for the stingrays.

You should do the big water change first. Then add salt. Then if you do any more water changes during the next month, you will need to add more salt with the new water. eg: In 3 days time you replace 50 litres, then add salt for that 50 litres.

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Did you plan on adding sand to the stingray tank? They would feel happier if there was a thin layer of fine sand. It would also help calm the silver dollars. Some plastic plants would help relax the silver dollars too. You can get plastic water lily leaves and they float on the surface. A couple of those would give the arowana a place to hide under.

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On the video near the end of the footage from the first tank, you show a gold marble angelfish in the corner. That fish seemed a bit stressed. Does it normally swim about or is it having trouble breathing too?
If it is having issues can you post a pic of it?

 

[CarloM12]

Well to answer the first question, I did not add sand because I was told it would be easier to clean with bare bottom, and that play sand and has sharp edges and can cut the stingray's bellies. I could always add it if I wanted to. Yeah, I am looking for a floating plant to get, I can find one. Yeah, I actually got that angelfish a few days ago, but it was just getting beaten up by the existing ones a bit, nothing to do with the parasite. Another thing is that I am not really comfortable taking out that much water, couldn't I just go 50%? If I do 90% I am going to lose my beneficial bacteria, especially if I do a canister change with it. Also, what sand do you recommend that I could use for the stingray tank that won't cut them?

 

[Colin_T]

A 50% water change will be fine.

The beneficial filter bacteria live on filter materials and hard objects in the tank. You can clean the filter materials one day and do a water change the next day if you like. Just wash the filter materials in a bucket of tank water, then wash the filter case and impellor under tap water.
You won't lose filter bacteria from changing the aquarium water.

I am pretty sure we used fine river sand in our tank, but any smooth sand or gravel is fine. You don't need much, a half inch layer is enough and gives them something to hide under or grub about in.

 

[CarloM12]

OK, so can I use sand from home depot or Lowes? Also, let's assume its neither velvet or gill flukes, will the salt still take care of whatever it is. I am going to use API Salt. 50% on both tanks, and should I still turn the temperature up? Also, have you heard of this medication known as Prazi Pro? Is it any good?

 

[CarloM12]

Also, I did the thing you told me to do to test for Velvet, and there is nothing, except for on my congo tetras, which are greenish gold, to begin with. I think we can narrow it down to gill flukes, and if I am wrong it's not like I am treating with medication anyways. Forgot to tell you that the rainbow sharks all died from breathing heavy and being motionless, I think they brought it into the tank. Ad last thing, how am I going to use the hose for one tank and the hose for another? Can I wash it off, and I've been doing it for almost a month now and the stingray tank is fine.

 

[CarloM12]

file//var/folders/t5/k4xmqljs339dlw93wffs8scw0000gn/T/IMG_1493%202.mov
I think I have the answer here, the fish has red gills and it just twitched in front of me, copy and paste that link.

 

[Colin_T]

I got my sand from the river but that's not recommended unless you have a clean river. Then you should wash it and bake it in the oven for an hour. You can also boil it for 10minutes (instead of baking it), after washing to kill off anything on it.

If you can buy a sealed up bag of washed river sand, then it should be fine but wash it again before using. And feel the sand, if it feels sharp when you roll it between your fingers, then try to find something smoother.

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If it isn't velvet or gill flukes, then it could be a bacterial or fungal infection on the gills. However, they don't normally spread very quickly. And they usually require direct contact and physical damage for it to infect a fish.
A bacterial infection in the gills will quickly spread to the mouth and will show up as a red inflamed area around the mouth, jaw and gills.
A fungal infection on the gills will make the gills look pale pink or white, but gill flukes also make the gills look pale pink.

Salt will treat most protozoans, gill flukes and some minor fungal and bacterial infections, depending on how advanced they are. Use salt at 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.

Methylene Blue is good for treating fungal and most bacterial infections in fish but it should be used in a hospital tank because it stains silicon blue and kills beneficial filter bacteria.

Triple/ Tri sulpha can be used on some fungal and bacterial infections, and is safe for scaleless fishes like loaches, catfish and sharks and rays. However, a number of disease organisms have developed a resistance to sulphur based medications.

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I would still increase the temperature. It can kill off a lot of protozoan parasites but will speed up fungal and bacterial infections. However, since the tank is already near 30C (86F), it won't speed up the disease much more than it already is.

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Prazi Pro is Praziquantel, a drug used to treat tapeworm in dogs and cats. Praziquantel is very safe for animals and fish. However, Prazi Pro in liquid form has an additive to preserve the Praziquantel in a liquid. If you can find straight Praziquantel tablets then they are safer to use. Having said that, the only fish that might get stressed from the liquid Prazi Pro would be the stingrays, and the amount going into their tank would be so small it should not be an issue for them. In your main tank it will be fine but it might irritate the stingray's skin.

If you use liquid medications like Prazi Pro, check the expiry date on them and keep them cold (in the fridge) to keep them from going off. Tablets last better but should be kept cool and dry too.

Praziquantel will treat tapeworms, gill flukes and white spot, however, I do not know if it works on velvet. But if you can get it, then it would be worth trying. You can use it in conjunction with the warm water.

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Congo tetras do have a natural green, blue gold reflection on their scales so spotting velvet on them is pretty much impossible

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You can wash the siphon hose out under hot tap water to kill off most things. If you can get the temperature to 40C (100F) and leave the hose in there for 10-15minutes it will kill most things that live in aquariums. You can also soak it in saturated salt water. Just dissolve salt into a bucket of water until no more salt dissolves. You will end up with a layer of salt on the bottom of the bucket of water. Put the hose and nets in this for an hour and it will be clean. Drying the hose after washing out with hot or salty water will kill anything left on or in it.

I would water change the stingray tank first, then the other tank that had the sharks in. Then wash the hose out with hot tap water before soaking in salt water for an hour, then leave it to dry.

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can you redo the link, it doesn't work.

 

[CarloM12]

Do you have an email I can send it to, the videos when I put them on YouTube never have good quality