It HAS always reminded me of a good, well-aged feta....
Debate topic : do fish have emotions?
- Thread starter AmyKieran
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Feta ... just the specifics made me laugh
I ran this question past Neale Monks, and as always his insight is considerable [direct comments in quotations]. I think we must discern a fish's response to something in terms of what it expects. "Realistically, the difference between human emotions and animal behaviours is likely one of degree. I don't believe an emotion is something completely different to, say, stress behaviours in fish. But rather, one is a more sophisticated version of the other."
"My concern with these sorts of discussions is that we sometimes project what matters to us onto the fish. This is your classic "My Betta is my best friend" sort of thing. Really, a Betta couldn't care less about how it's regarded, but does care about water quality, diet, etc."
"We shouldn't ignore the fact wild animals spend almost all of their lives stressed and competing for the essentials. Happiness is a luxury wild animals do not enjoy. So, if you're keeping fish well enough they're disease-free and breeding, you're doing something right. But we should, where possible, be considering social and behavioural needs as well. If people want to consider the emotions of their fish, that's fine -- so long as it's after they've accounted for the fundamentals the fish needs to be healthy."
"My concern with these sorts of discussions is that we sometimes project what matters to us onto the fish. This is your classic "My Betta is my best friend" sort of thing. Really, a Betta couldn't care less about how it's regarded, but does care about water quality, diet, etc."
"We shouldn't ignore the fact wild animals spend almost all of their lives stressed and competing for the essentials. Happiness is a luxury wild animals do not enjoy. So, if you're keeping fish well enough they're disease-free and breeding, you're doing something right. But we should, where possible, be considering social and behavioural needs as well. If people want to consider the emotions of their fish, that's fine -- so long as it's after they've accounted for the fundamentals the fish needs to be healthy."
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I think that's right, Byron. It's probably a question of degree. Based on how they act, I believe fish experience pleasure, fear, pain, and discomfort, in some sense. Are those emotions? Probably, in a sense. Do fish feel "happy" or "sad"? I seriously doubt it. But maybe, in a sense.
I asked my fish if they felt emotion, but they didn't answer because they were gathered around their little TV watching the end of Forrest Gump. I'm pretty sure I heard some sniffling, but that might have just been a dirty filter impeller.
I asked my fish if they felt emotion, but they didn't answer because they were gathered around their little TV watching the end of Forrest Gump. I'm pretty sure I heard some sniffling, but that might have just been a dirty filter impeller.
I find it hard to catch my fish crying, for some reason...
Read this and really opened my eyes, perhaps we shouldn’t even be considering emotions at all but rather fundamental aspects. Very psychological
Well, although it’s a bit theatrical
We haven’t took a survey of all of the available rock on the moon, so perhaps some of it is cheese
"you'd be surprised how good dog tastes" - Little Big Man
Farming chimps would also be quite dangerous.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Pain is not an emotion, it is the result of damage to the body in some way. Hunger is not an emotion either, it is a physical response to needing food. As a psych major we did the classical operant conditioning experiment where you teach a rat to pred a lever to get food and then you teach it not to press the lever. The motivation was hunger.
I breed plecos. In the wild they are one of the smaller fish in their environment. They need to hide to survive. They need to do this from birth. They are pretty much hard wired to do so. If in the open they reflexively bolt for cover at the first sign of motion. This is not fear it is instinct when done by recently free swimming fry.
I am not sure if fish have any "feelings." What I find most interesting in this respect is the behaviour of my clown loaches. They l"ike" to be in groups and they like to be in physical contact regularly although they also have a pecking order. This is established, maintained or changed by fights. But i hase witnessed the Alpha clown stop an intermediate one from bullying a mych smaller one. Somewhere in all of this there appears to be more than just instinct. I do know that clows kept alone are never "happy" or "normal."
I have kept angels which pair to spawn. What makes them pick each other? I grew out a group and they chose.
Silje Kittilsen,
Functional aspects of emotions in fish,
Behavioural Processes, Volume 100, 2013,
Pages 153-159, ISSN 0376-6357,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.beproc.2013.09.002. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635713001940)
https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/...16_Functional Aspects of Emotions in Fish.pdf
Braithwaite, V. A., & Boulcott, P. (2007). Pain perception, aversion and fear in fish. Dis Aquat Org, 75, 131-138.
I breed plecos. In the wild they are one of the smaller fish in their environment. They need to hide to survive. They need to do this from birth. They are pretty much hard wired to do so. If in the open they reflexively bolt for cover at the first sign of motion. This is not fear it is instinct when done by recently free swimming fry.
I am not sure if fish have any "feelings." What I find most interesting in this respect is the behaviour of my clown loaches. They l"ike" to be in groups and they like to be in physical contact regularly although they also have a pecking order. This is established, maintained or changed by fights. But i hase witnessed the Alpha clown stop an intermediate one from bullying a mych smaller one. Somewhere in all of this there appears to be more than just instinct. I do know that clows kept alone are never "happy" or "normal."
I have kept angels which pair to spawn. What makes them pick each other? I grew out a group and they chose.
Silje Kittilsen,
Functional aspects of emotions in fish,
Behavioural Processes, Volume 100, 2013,
Pages 153-159, ISSN 0376-6357,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.beproc.2013.09.002. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635713001940)
Abstract
There is an ongoing scientific discussion on whether fish have emotions, and if so how they experience them? The discussion has incorporated important areas such as brain anatomy and function, physiological and behavioural responses, and the cognitive abilities that fish possess. Little attention has however, been directed towards what functional aspects emotions ought to have in fish. If fish have emotions – why? The elucidation of this question and an assessment of the scientific evidences of emotions in fish in an evolutionary and functional framework would represent a valuable contribution in the discussion on whether fish are emotional creatures. Here parts of the vast amount of literature from both biology and psychology relating to the scientific field of emotions, animal emotion, and the functional aspects that emotions fulfil in the lives of humans and animals are reviewed. Subsequently, by viewing fish behaviour, physiology and cognitive abilities in the light of this functional framework it is possible to infer what functions emotions may serve in fish. This approach may contribute to the vital running discussion on the subject of emotions in fish. In fact, if it can be substantiated that emotions are likely to serve a function in fish similar to that of other higher vertebrate species, the notion that fish do have emotions will be strengthened.https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/...16_Functional Aspects of Emotions in Fish.pdf
Braithwaite, V. A., & Boulcott, P. (2007). Pain perception, aversion and fear in fish. Dis Aquat Org, 75, 131-138.
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I don't know if this would be considered emotion but I have a sick pleco. Looks like he is getting better but not yet a sure thing. The thing is that there are only three other fish in the tank being a small albino cory and two black skirt tetras. The larger of the tetras has wanted to nip at the sick pleco but the smaller won't allow and attacks if the larger goes for the pleco driving it away. Except for when it needs to find food the cory will not leave the pleco's side. I mean the smaller tetra is only 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the larger tetra but will go berserk mode to drive the larger away from the pleco.
Granted that the pleco is the largest critter in the tank and may be alpha and the cory and smaller tetra are just protecting the alpha. If they were all the same species the alpha aspect would make sense but we have two fish of different species obviously protecting a fish of a third species.
It would take a lot to convince me that the interaction going on with these fish does not show some form of basic emotion. I'm not saying emotion such as is experienced by humans but possibly a more primitive form of emotion.
Many will say that the brain is just too small to have the ability for emotion but we still know so little about the brain that I don't believe we have the right to make that assumption.
The following image is the little tetra on guard duty. It won't leave unless feeding. If the tetra is feeding the cory will be there. One or both of these little fish are there at all times. Even if on a VERY primitive level, if this is not an emotional display explain to me what is.
Ya, what you can see of the pleco looks bad but yesterday he (tired of saying it) was almost entirely a ghostly grayish white; he seems to be doing MUCH better. Presently the little tetra is still standing guard above and the little cory is in a bit of a hole beside the pleco. No one can convince me that they are not standing guard.
<edit>
A bit later and the little tetra is still standing guard following above the pleco while he looks for food.
Granted that the pleco is the largest critter in the tank and may be alpha and the cory and smaller tetra are just protecting the alpha. If they were all the same species the alpha aspect would make sense but we have two fish of different species obviously protecting a fish of a third species.
It would take a lot to convince me that the interaction going on with these fish does not show some form of basic emotion. I'm not saying emotion such as is experienced by humans but possibly a more primitive form of emotion.
Many will say that the brain is just too small to have the ability for emotion but we still know so little about the brain that I don't believe we have the right to make that assumption.
The following image is the little tetra on guard duty. It won't leave unless feeding. If the tetra is feeding the cory will be there. One or both of these little fish are there at all times. Even if on a VERY primitive level, if this is not an emotional display explain to me what is.
Ya, what you can see of the pleco looks bad but yesterday he (tired of saying it) was almost entirely a ghostly grayish white; he seems to be doing MUCH better. Presently the little tetra is still standing guard above and the little cory is in a bit of a hole beside the pleco. No one can convince me that they are not standing guard.
<edit>
A bit later and the little tetra is still standing guard following above the pleco while he looks for food.
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As I have said elsewhere....I had a very similar situation in my aquarium as @jaylach describes above.
One of my older and original female Pepper Cories had been "off" for a week. She was eating fine but just not enthuasiastic in her activity (the polar opposite to her normal behaviour). The rest of the fish were escorting her everywhere, getting niggly at anyone who got to close to her and generally encouraging her to move around in a very gentle way.
My fish will not be caught under any circumstances....one sight of the net and I suddenly have what seems like an empty aquarium.....everyone scatters and hides. It is fine by me, just cos a fish is domesticated in its breeding does not make it 100% compliant to the whims of its human caretaker.
Anyway, as time went on, this Pepper was slowing down, so I thought maybe I should take her out of the community and give her a rest from the hubbub of the aquarium. She was not having ANY of it. She summoned what strength that she had and scurried off with the others as normal.
So I left her...but kept a close eye on her. The rest of the fish were guarding her and encouraging her...just as that plucky little Tetra is with @jaylach 's Pleco.
Then one morning all the fish swam away from her and she was up at the surface in one corner of the aquarium. I took the hood off the aquarium, she never moved. So leaving the hood off, I went into the kitchen to get my net and a jug...she still never moved...put water from the aquarium into the jug....she still never moved. The rest of the fish stayed a discreet distance away, didn't hide as usual.
I put the net into the aquarium and she swam and flopped into it. She had passed away before I had chance to empty her from the net to the jug of water.
For the rest of the day all the other fish in the aquarium stayed together, very little activity, none of the usual play or mischief.
If that is not an emotional response from the dying fish and her tankmates, then I do not know what is.
If you watch wildlife films, especially about Orca and other whales, when a mother loses her baby, they carry that baby for miles and miles and the pod reacts to protect, comfort and support the grieving mother.
That is emotion in its purest sense...the sense of loss is an emotion that every living thing experiences, the sense of protecting those who are unwell or insecure is an emotion that every living thing experiences.
That little Tetra can sense something is wrong with the Pleco, the response that it is showing is an emotional response.
One of my older and original female Pepper Cories had been "off" for a week. She was eating fine but just not enthuasiastic in her activity (the polar opposite to her normal behaviour). The rest of the fish were escorting her everywhere, getting niggly at anyone who got to close to her and generally encouraging her to move around in a very gentle way.
My fish will not be caught under any circumstances....one sight of the net and I suddenly have what seems like an empty aquarium.....everyone scatters and hides. It is fine by me, just cos a fish is domesticated in its breeding does not make it 100% compliant to the whims of its human caretaker.
Anyway, as time went on, this Pepper was slowing down, so I thought maybe I should take her out of the community and give her a rest from the hubbub of the aquarium. She was not having ANY of it. She summoned what strength that she had and scurried off with the others as normal.
So I left her...but kept a close eye on her. The rest of the fish were guarding her and encouraging her...just as that plucky little Tetra is with @jaylach 's Pleco.
Then one morning all the fish swam away from her and she was up at the surface in one corner of the aquarium. I took the hood off the aquarium, she never moved. So leaving the hood off, I went into the kitchen to get my net and a jug...she still never moved...put water from the aquarium into the jug....she still never moved. The rest of the fish stayed a discreet distance away, didn't hide as usual.
I put the net into the aquarium and she swam and flopped into it. She had passed away before I had chance to empty her from the net to the jug of water.
For the rest of the day all the other fish in the aquarium stayed together, very little activity, none of the usual play or mischief.
If that is not an emotional response from the dying fish and her tankmates, then I do not know what is.
If you watch wildlife films, especially about Orca and other whales, when a mother loses her baby, they carry that baby for miles and miles and the pod reacts to protect, comfort and support the grieving mother.
That is emotion in its purest sense...the sense of loss is an emotion that every living thing experiences, the sense of protecting those who are unwell or insecure is an emotion that every living thing experiences.
That little Tetra can sense something is wrong with the Pleco, the response that it is showing is an emotional response.
We know from careful, well done research that some fish show surprising mental abilities. Some been proven to recognize abstract markings when choosing food, quickly counting dots for example to know which way to go to find meals. It's cool stuff. They have similar nervous systems to us, and the pain or not debate is over except if you haven't looked into it ((most people don't care...).
Some fish use tools. Instinct or culture? I've watched Satanoperca carrying around leaves and rocks covered with eggs, putting them in the right spot in the filter flow for them to get maximum comfort. I've carried my kids to places where they'd be warmer or cooler. Decision, instinct, emotion.... I don't know.
So there is a degree of intelligence in some of those fish brains. Emotion and intelligence are really hard to define. That's a problem. We humans are driven by instincts just as our fish are, but have our wonderful complex brains to interpret what the rest of our nervous systems tell us. Emotion is part of that, and when does it start? Fish don't have expressive faces and it's hard to design any experiment to test emotions. It's already hard enough to define intelligence.
A lonely, isolated human is more likely to feel a certain set of emotions compared to a person in a more pleasing social situation. A lonely shoaling fish? What is stress, and what is emotion? There's no physical, painful stress for a fish to be alone, but we see mental stress. Is it felt as an emotion? Are our emotions just biochemical responses to stresses? Yikes.
Maybe we just play words games and accept fish feel stress (we see it in behaviour, colour loss, immune system collapses, etc) and humans feel sadness. Where is the line?
Wallace and Gromit make me feel emotions, and cheese makes me feel good! Emotion or instinct...
Some fish use tools. Instinct or culture? I've watched Satanoperca carrying around leaves and rocks covered with eggs, putting them in the right spot in the filter flow for them to get maximum comfort. I've carried my kids to places where they'd be warmer or cooler. Decision, instinct, emotion.... I don't know.
So there is a degree of intelligence in some of those fish brains. Emotion and intelligence are really hard to define. That's a problem. We humans are driven by instincts just as our fish are, but have our wonderful complex brains to interpret what the rest of our nervous systems tell us. Emotion is part of that, and when does it start? Fish don't have expressive faces and it's hard to design any experiment to test emotions. It's already hard enough to define intelligence.
A lonely, isolated human is more likely to feel a certain set of emotions compared to a person in a more pleasing social situation. A lonely shoaling fish? What is stress, and what is emotion? There's no physical, painful stress for a fish to be alone, but we see mental stress. Is it felt as an emotion? Are our emotions just biochemical responses to stresses? Yikes.
Maybe we just play words games and accept fish feel stress (we see it in behaviour, colour loss, immune system collapses, etc) and humans feel sadness. Where is the line?
Wallace and Gromit make me feel emotions, and cheese makes me feel good! Emotion or instinct...
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I think that we, as humans, make the mistake of judging intelligence and emotions strictly by our standards and that is a mistake. We don't even understand our own minds so how can we expect to claim to under the mind of another species? While mammals, not fish, I challenge anyone to claim that whales and dolphins do not have emotions and their own language.
Let's look at bats... Several species of these amazing critters use sonar to hunt. The processing for this sonar is contained in a minute brain yet out does anything we have in the military.
Now let's look at Parrot and rope fish. Both will recognize and interact with humans in a VERY friendly manner if allowed.
Then I have a bird which most think are totally instinctive with no actual 'brain power'. Sorry to disappoint but it is becoming apparent that many birds have equal, and in some cases, more mental abilities than some dogs and cats. Ever seen a dog that has lost its human? Quite often the reaction can be nothing other than emotion.
Going back to my little protective fish... The larger tetra that tried to attack the sick pleco has been shunned. The little tetra and, even smaller cory, will not allow it out of a corner of the tank. I also watched the little cory pushing a chunk of algae toward the front of the pleco. You can't tell me that was not an effort to help the sick pleco eat. Keep in mind that this is a display of inter-species help being offered by critters that goes beyond what we tend to offer to other humans. What species is truly the most advanced and what right do we have to show the arrogance to claim the right to make the decision. I mean how can we claim to be the top species when we are the only ones that seem hell bent on killing our planet?
Sigh, it is just so sweet. That little tetra just will not leave its position of 'guard duty' above the pleco. I think that little tetra may have just become alpha.
Let's look at bats... Several species of these amazing critters use sonar to hunt. The processing for this sonar is contained in a minute brain yet out does anything we have in the military.
Now let's look at Parrot and rope fish. Both will recognize and interact with humans in a VERY friendly manner if allowed.
Then I have a bird which most think are totally instinctive with no actual 'brain power'. Sorry to disappoint but it is becoming apparent that many birds have equal, and in some cases, more mental abilities than some dogs and cats. Ever seen a dog that has lost its human? Quite often the reaction can be nothing other than emotion.
Going back to my little protective fish... The larger tetra that tried to attack the sick pleco has been shunned. The little tetra and, even smaller cory, will not allow it out of a corner of the tank. I also watched the little cory pushing a chunk of algae toward the front of the pleco. You can't tell me that was not an effort to help the sick pleco eat. Keep in mind that this is a display of inter-species help being offered by critters that goes beyond what we tend to offer to other humans. What species is truly the most advanced and what right do we have to show the arrogance to claim the right to make the decision. I mean how can we claim to be the top species when we are the only ones that seem hell bent on killing our planet?
Sigh, it is just so sweet. That little tetra just will not leave its position of 'guard duty' above the pleco. I think that little tetra may have just become alpha.
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Anyone ever see that chicken that lived for ages with no head they fed it through a syringe... was that real ? If so how surely there is a debate that a chicken has no capacity to think if it didn’t need a head .. Mike the headless chicken I think it was called , kind of funny
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