Cycling With Or Without Plants - Debating The Merits Of Each

[eaglesaquarium]

 

I am operating under the assumption that a person will not be adding any ferts to the tank when doing any needed cycling.

That's a big assumption. I don't use ammonia-based ferts but if somebody is running CO2 on a tank then you can be pretty sure they will be dosing some kind of ferts. As I've said, you are not accounting for the hobbyist who is keen to try out CO2 but is not sufficiently experienced for a silent cycle.
 

Plant the tank first, give the plants time to settle in some. The odds are minimal ferts if any are needed here.

I think this depends on too many factors to be acceptable as a broad statement. In the planted world it is considered best practice to give plants as many nutrients as they require to keep them healthy right from the start. The amount of nutrients they require will depend on lighting strength and photoperiod, supply or not of carbon, plant types and biomass.

If your guide is intended to target a very limited subset of hobbyists who want to stay low-tech and stick maybe a couple of crypts and a sword in their tank then you need to make this clear. It sounds like you are discounting the possibility of CO2 and ferts being used during cycling. If this is your intention then the implied recommendation is that anyone using CO2 should follow three-fingers advice of cycling first and adding plants later instead.
 

The amount of time ammonia will be going into a tank with plants to get it completely ready for stocking is minimal. We are talking a matter of days here not weeks in most cases. Bear in mind that the one thing most new hobbyists have when they embark on their second tank is some bacteria to add to it.

My own experience does not agree with this prediction. My tank took three weeks to cycle with several ammonia additions, after mature media seeding. Your prediction may work for some people but there are too many variables to guarantee that cycling will be complete in a matter of days for everyone.
 


 
 
I fear that we are getting QUITE far afield here.  There are too many variables to be accounted for with a single method, I do believe. 
 
Let me see if I can clarify what I believe to be TTA's premise:
 
 
A fishkeeper with limited experience (so that they would be relying on someone else's approach to cycling) is looking to set-up a tank with a FEW plants.  Even if they were injecting CO2 (which according to my definition, is not what is being proposed by TTA, as they would fall under the heading of 'sophisticated' plants), it wouldn't stop the premise.
 
 
Step 1 - The keeper would set up their tank and add the plants - and let them settle in for a few days up to two weeks (not sure the exact time frame) during that time the keeper could be dosing CO2 or ferts.  It doesn't matter, because of STEP 2.
 
Step 2 - The keeper would perform a large water change to 'zero' the tank, in essence removing ANY ammonia that could be associated with the ferts (thereby making the use of ferts completely null in this discussion).
 
Step 3 - Refill and dose ammonia (pure, not in fertilizer form) to between 2 and 3 ppm, where of course, they are measuring the water they either removed or replaced to get a better sense of the true volume of water, rather than just a very rough estimate.   (with CO2 running or not, as the case will be long term - a single 24 hour period with no additional ferts will NOT cause a major issue to the plants or cause algae - and for that matter if they have salts, they could even add them, just not any salts with 'ammonium'.)
 
Step 4 - Test in 24 hours to determine the amount of ammonia in the water.  Use this to determine how much more ammonia processing life is present.  If it drops to 1 ppm from 2ppm, then you can feel fairly confident that a light stocking is possible and you need only wait another day before adding them.  If more than that remains, it would pay to wait longer and continue testing ammonia, because obviously the plants aren't using much N, and there's insufficient bacteria to deal with what's left over.
 
 
Step 5 - proceed with fish stocking as determined by the previous step, either very slowly, moderately, or completely depending on the results, and having waited until the ammonia levels are back to a safe range.  Ferts (if being used) can be added immediately following the 24 hour reading to ensure that the plants are their happiest.
 
 
 
I think that's a far better plan for an inexperienced 'cycler' than just adding plants and fish and hoping that you are ready for what may come next.  As ian pointed out, certain plants use the nutrients like ammonium far faster than others... but a novice may not know the difference, or may not choose plants based on that.  So, the 'silent cycle' is going to leave them in a difficult situation.
 
 
I believe, the proposal TwoTankAmin is making, is a cycling article for NEW keepers who have a FEW plants, not an all encompassing article for keepers of all experience levels.  Because, honestly, most experienced keepers believe that they know what they are doing, and don't need to follow someone else's directions.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

daize (and ian as well) have a read here http/www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/ and you will see the following;
 

 
When should I start fertilizing my tank?
It is common practice to allow the plants to get established in your tank for about 4 weeks or so before they show a need for fertilizers. This time could be longer in a lower lighted tank or sooner in a higher watt situation. The only way to know when to start is by watching the plants health. Growth rate is normally slow in a new tank but plant health is easily determined.

 
Or if you go to Tropica you will see they say:

 
Postpone the supply of fertilizer, as the plants have brought their own "lunch pack" for the first 2-4 weeks.

from http/www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/start-up/tropica-app.aspx
 
In what I suggest, I am actually subverting that somewhat. because even when one waits 10-14 days to begin dosing some ammonia to finish things up, that is food for the plants and a bit earlier than one might normally begin. However, because in many cases the amount of ammonia is not great nor put in daily and not for very long, my experience has been it is not usually a problem.
 
A big advantage of planting first is the plants have a chance to root in the substrate or do some attaching to wood or rocks before adding the fish that might dislodge newly plants.

 

[Chad]

Using slow growing plants in a silent cycle won't work as well. Plants like crypts, ferns and swords are not enough for a silent cycle.

That's excellent information and makes a good bit of common sense as well as uptake will be a ratio of growth.
 
Do you have a short list of what plants would work best?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

My understanding is that stem plants are a good place to start, but I would imagine floating plants like frogbit and duckweed would also be very good.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

What I mean is that once one reaches a given mass of plants in a tank, there is little need to cycle. This is a level of plants most folks new to plants do not normally do.
 
What I mean is setting up and stocking a tank with plants involved is not as simple as plain old cycling. And ferns and other slower growing plants are common selections for beginners.
 
And than you ian for making my point. Most people starting out in plants do not follow Tom Barr's advice to plant heavily and stock gradually. Most of them will not become involved with complex fertilizing. What usually happens is they read threads by folks who have experience with plants and get the impression there is nothing to it. And these poor folks get encouraged, in many case, to bite off a lot more than can chew because of it. But most just start with a few ferns and some java moss etc. They start out with plants that will not leave a tank fish ready. These are the people who need to know how to make it so.
 
But then how many people on this and many other sites kept insisting on 5 ppm of ammonia and frequent additions for fishless cycling? Ian goes on about ammonium in a fertilizer throwing off test results while the newbie plant person reading they have added something with ammonium in it goes into a panic about harming their fish. This is two different worlds and the new hobbyist is simply not equipped to have what he or she needs to deal with a lot of this stuff. There is a learning curve involved.
 
You do not need a list Chad. Fast growing plants- anybody looking to get plants, the same as fish, should be doing some basic research. All one needs to see is fast growing and then that co2 and intense light are not required. And as eagle noted, floating plants are all nutrient hogs. The problem is many folks may not want either the type or the quantity of plants required for a silent cycle. Long before one should be thinking about a silent cycle they need to master a plain old simple cycle.
 
And I have never bought into the term silent cycle. At this stage of things there is so little bacteria involved that there is no cycle in that respect. And since stocking levels in such tanks are way lower than in a tank that size with few or no plants, that is is unfair to make comparisons. My feeling is if one is unable to read ammonia or nitrite at any point, there is no cycle going on.
 
Oh yes, in my haste before I forgot to ask ian if one is adding ammonium to a tank because of the fertilizer they are adding, why wouldn't common sense tell one to test for ammonia before doing the dosing I suggest? This is as common an idea as checking one's tap water parameters to see if it contains ammonia or nitrate.

 

[daizeUK]

daize (and ian as well) have a read here http/www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/ and you will see the following;
 [It is common practice to allow the plants to get established in your tank for about 4 weeks or so before they show a need for fertilizers...]
 
Or if you go to Tropica you will see they say:
[Postpone the supply of fertilizer, as the plants have brought their own "lunch pack" for the first 2-4 weeks.]
from http/www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/start-up/tropica-app.aspx

TTA, I think those guides were written around the idea that an excess of nutrients in the water column causes algae and this is no longer a prevailing concern since Tom Barr's research showed that excess nutrients do not cause algae.

Forcing a plant to use up its reserves of nutrients in the first few weeks does not sound like a healthy way to start planting.

I believe that most plant experts these days prefer to fertilize from the start BUT since I am not an expert and not completely certain, I would be very interested to hear what Ian or Tom think on the subject.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

No daize tropica is not out of date in any fashion. they are still one of the world leaders in aquatic plants for the hobby. That quote comes from the Tropica app- did you click through to the link? But once again you are missing the point I have been attempting to make for some time now. In a high light, co2 added tank with more difficult plants, the need for ferts (and for cycling) is totally different than all the other planted tanks that are not on this level. And the farther one moves from this level, the more things change in regards to setting up the tank initially.
 
They say the same thing on their site articles. here is the one entitled Growing-in

 
4) No fertiliser or a limited amount of fertiliser during the first 3-4 weeks. The plants contain plenty of nutrients already from the nursery, which is sufficient to establish a root network.

from http/www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/start-up/growing-in.aspx
 
Later the article states:

 
7) We recommend that the introduction of fish is delayed for 3-4 weeks until the plants have established. In other respects, follow the fish stocking guidelines for new aquariums.

 
These directions mean the process from day one to fully stocked is pretty dang long. I do not think a lot of folks would have the patience. There are only two stocking guidelines if you think bout it. Full stocking is possible right a way with fishless cycling and it takes a bunch weeks to stock fully doing fish in stocking. I am assuming they are suggesting gradual stocking.
 
Barr's site seems to indicate that immediate or near immediate fertilization is the case for high light, heavily planted tanks. But since these are not the norm when one considers all forms of planted tanks out there, it appears only to apply to a limited portion of the planted tank world. These things are for the rest of the tanks.
 
But I wondered about something else in your last tank where you lost the non- aquatic plant. With your experience in cycling your tanks, you know you can seed a new tanks with something from an existing tank. I wonder why, if you felt the last tank needed to have some level of cycling, you would not do some amount of seeding from one of your other tanks? The use of live plants in combination with seed bacteria from other tanks or tanks is the absolute fastest and easiest way to get a new tank fish ready.

 

[daizeUK]

But I wondered about something else in your last tank where you lost the non- aquatic plant. With your experience in cycling your tanks, you know you can seed a new tanks with something from an existing tank. I wonder why, if you felt the last tank needed to have some level of cycling, you would not do some amount of seeding from one of your other tanks? The use of live plants in combination with seed bacteria from other tanks or tanks is the absolute fastest and easiest way to get a new tank fish ready.

I did seed it. My established 64L tank contained 9 pieces of ceramic media in the bio-chamber of an Interpet PF2 internal filter. I used three or four of them to seed my Eheim 2213 external filter (which obviously is a much larger capacity filter to which I added 1L worth of new ceramic media).

However I will admit that I was heavy-handed with the ammonia addition. I made a mistake with the directions on the bottle of Dr Tim's ammonium chloride which call for 1 drop per gallon for 2mg/L NH4-N. I forgot that NH4-N is not the same as NH4!!! so I added 1.5 drops per gallon in a misguided attempt to achieve 3ppm ammonium. I realised my mistake afterwards that I had been adding the equivalent of almost 4ppm ammonium. So that might help to explain both the prolonged cycle time and the adverse reaction of the plant.

I believe, the proposal TwoTankAmin is making, is a cycling article for NEW keepers who have a FEW plants, not an all encompassing article for keepers of all experience levels. Because, honestly, most experienced keepers believe that they know what they are doing, and don't need to follow someone else's directions.

I think that's too black-and-white. I don't consider myself to fall into either end of the spectrum.
If I may attempt to broadly categorise all kinds of planted tanks as I see them:
1. Low-light low-tech lightly planted
2. Low-light high-tech heavily planted
3. High-light high-tech heavily planted

I think there's an awful lot of us in the middle category who really could use the guidance. It encompasses everyone who is trying to increase their plant mass with Excel and some bottled ferts to those who are venturing into pressurized gas and dry salts for the first time. I don't think it's very helpful to expect that people in this category automatically know the best way to cycle - they probably need it more that category (1), because more can go wrong.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

I believe, the proposal TwoTankAmin is making, is a cycling article for NEW keepers who have a FEW plants, not an all encompassing article for keepers of all experience levels. Because, honestly, most experienced keepers believe that they know what they are doing, and don't need to follow someone else's directions.

I think that's too black-and-white. I don't consider myself to fall into either end of the spectrum.
If I may attempt to broadly categorise all kinds of planted tanks as I see them:
1. Low-light low-tech lightly planted
2. Low-light high-tech heavily planted
3. High-light high-tech heavily planted

I think there's an awful lot of us in the middle category who really could use the guidance. It encompasses everyone who is trying to increase their plant mass with Excel and some bottled ferts to those who are venturing into pressurized gas and dry salts for the first time. I don't think it's very helpful to expect that people in this category automatically know the best way to cycle - they probably need it more that category (1), because more can go wrong.
 

 
I apologize if my definition seems too small, but a fishkeeper who has set-up MULTIPLE tanks already and then starts another one with plants will be far more adept and understand the nitrogen cycle.  When I say 'new' fishkeeper, I primarily mean someone who has cycled one or fewer tanks.  Going through the process a second time, the keeper will learn even more than the first time, including how to seed (or where their attempt to seed fell short of their goal).
 
 
 
You make a good point, that there are a great many variables when plants are added to the equation.  BUT, as I pointed out previously, doing a single ammonia dose and test 24 hours later (with no additional fertilization) can give the keeper a great deal of information regarding the nitrogen use of the plants (and any bacteria that came along for the ride).  This single 24 hour period will in no way harm the plants, but will indicate where the keeper needs to go from there.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that the 'generic' article falls short on a great many tanks.  However, to try to write articles to deal with all scenarios would just be superfluous.  It would actually work against our intended purpose of the cycling article(s).  We want EASY to  understand steps that a NEW fishkeeper can follow.  The articles are in place primarily for the individual with little to no experience.  It gives easy directions on what to do and when to do it.  Having too many options can cause overload on the part of the new fishkeeper.
 
As ian points out, the variable that your list still doesn't address is the types of plants involved, which would mean that your 3 categories quickly could become 6 categories where each is split for fast growers versus slow growers.  Then there's DIY CO2 versus pressurized CO2.  The list goes on and on. 
 
 
But, let's be clear, the original intent of this thread was to help a brand new fishkeeper who wanted to have some plants in their tank, and was doing CO2.  This person had never done a cycle before, and was seeking some guidance.  Ultimately, that is the person that the proposed article would be helping.  And honestly, the directions I laid out above would work for any keeper.  The issue is not the initial dose of ammonia and lack of additional fertilizers.  The issue is how to proceed once that first reading comes back.  It becomes a bit daunting at that point. 
 
Would a person with a single anubias consider their tank "planted"?  They would be a prime candidate for algae after an extended period of cycling.  But, a member with 5 crypts, 3 java fern, 2 anubias and an amazon sword - would be in a far better position to continue the cycle, as those NUMBER of plants will start to use up the ammonia far faster than a single specimen.  Not to mention that they will also be introducing more bacteria to the tank on all those extra plants. 
 
 
 
And I apologize for not adding references.  I think it is agreed that more categories to be shuffled through by newbies would be seen as cumbersome, but have no data to verify that position.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Now I have a completely different method for breaking down the types of planted tanks. I tend to use more than a single category. I look at at least three factors, one of which I feel most planted tank mavens ignore.
 
1. Fish Selection
2. Amount/volume of plants which will include he specific types.
3. Light levels which will fold in the need for ferts and co2.
 
Most people who are seriously into aquascaping and plants pretty much ignore item #1. Their fish selection will be based on their plants. However, most folks in the hobby will consider #1 the over riding concern. The fish people who want a given fish will match the plants to that fish. For example, you cant put a common pleco into a tank with a lovely ground cover of baby tears or glosso. The person who want that pleco is going to try a few hardy ferns and anubias etc. And if the plants get trashed, they do not care, they will happily remove live plants to have the fish.
 
Oh and I finally figured out the Barr definitions based on a post he made on another forum I visit. The thread was about cycling with plants and Tom quoted another poster and then replied:

 
"It really depends on which plants you choose and how heavily you initially plant. I would hesitate to fish cycle with just a few java ferns and anubias, for example..."
 
Tom's reply:
 I would call that a tank with a plant, not a planted tank.
 
Testing NO2 and NH4?
Are these REALLY useful habits?

Compared to say a water change or reasonable stocking rates?

I think not.

I'd argue that water changes will prevent more fish deaths than testing NH4/NO2 or doing FC.

This is a plant forum however and the benefits of plant uptake of NH4 directly cannot be side stepped or overlooked.
Plant greatly enhance/accelerate the BACTERIA, as well as supply a source of the bacteria/substrate for them, and directly take up NH4.

This is referred to as the silent cycle.
Since the plants remove the NH4, we never see any NH4 or NO2 accumulation.
Hence the term, silent cycle, there is no traditional cycle.

 
And that is the difference between us. Tom's solution is put in lots of plants which is fine as long as that comports with the desires of the fish keepers. but since most newer to the hobby folks do just that, they have been not given any help at all. And so for all those folks setting up their first or second tank, who are just adding a few ferns and/or anubias, to all of you, sorry you added fish and they died.
 
I have stated that I respect Mr. Barr's contributions to the planted side of the hobby, but I will say again that he is not in touch with the many many hobbyists who do not want nor will they heavily plant a tank. I am sorry, but i am not willing to suggest to folks that either they must plant heavily or else don't have a planted tank. I am not willing to tell them they have to stock gradually as in a fish in cycle when this simply is not necessarily true. But somebody else said it quite nicely in that same thread above when he wrote:
 

 
Mr. Barr,
You are an acknowledged learned and experienced aquatic hobbyist, and the 'no cycling necessary' approach you have taken for all these years is unquestionably fully effective. And yes, you cannot also be faulted for describing an FC as a "waste of time".

The problem lies with giving newbies this type of advice without clearly elaborating on the 'How-To's', the essential Do's and Dont's, and without outlining the precise step by step procedure for successfully implementing a 'silent' cycle.

This apparently is what you 'don't get', but should, and is precisely the reason why many experienced hobbyists advocate FC's.
Fishless cycles are described in detail in many articles, threads and stickies on aquarium forums, and newbies can readily follow step by step procedures for preparing a new tank without risking loss of fish life.

Literally every aquaria forum is rife with tales of woe, of hundreds or thousands of failures, or fish loss disasters each year, when newbies try to set up their first fish tank without any cycle at all, or by doing a fish-in cycle, or by some form of 'silent' cycle such as you describe.

Because they have limited or no experience, and have no idea what to look out for, or lack a common sense approach to what is feasible or appropriate, or not, newbies all too frequently make bad judgments as to: stocking levels (e.g. immediately adding a dozen large fish to a 20 gal tank, or; water changes ( e.g.assume that a once a month wc is quite satisfactory to bring down a rising ammonia level, or; planting a tank ( e.g. place 2 or 3 small plants in a 29 gal tank and expect it to be immediately cycled). These are just some examples, but the list of faux pas, and problems associated with a new tank set-up, is endless.
It's Murphy's Law at work, which we all should appreciate and accept as fact.


These are the very reasons why serious, committed, and experienced aquarists will opt to responsibly, and cautiously, advise newbies to undertake FC's.

Having said all of this, if you were to undertake to write a suitably methodical and relatively detailed article on the silent cycle method to be followed by beginners, and have same posted on the forums of which you are a member (and which you and others of us could refer newcomers to) then there would be no grounds for others to take issue with your brief commentaries on the subject, such as what you have done here, as well as on the Planted Tank forum.

That's my take on the subject, with all due respect to you and your experience, and at the risk of my being found to be rude and offensive.

 
But the still doesn't address all those situations which Mr. Barr might describe as a "tank with a few plants and not a planted tank." Maybe had I written how to cycle a tanks with a few plants this whole thread would not exist. But the thing is, can anybody show us where the line is one must cross to go from a tank with some plants to a planted tank. What plants, how many, what sizes? And what about the folks who can not afford lots of plants? But I will offer this. if you are a member of a planted tank site, the odds are good you are planting heavily or more into aquascaping than the fish and you can follow Mr. Barr's advice and methods. But if you are on a site like this one, or any of the similar general fish sites, which are filled with new hobbyists, then you will likely be lost with his advice and might benefit from what I suggest.
 
I am now also a bit miffed with daize. She has intimated that my suggestion that one can cycle with plants in place was the reason she killed her liverwort. Now she posts that she overdosed ammonia at least once. We know that plants have a variable tolerance for ammonia- it is not universal. So now I wonder what actually might have killed the plant. Was it the attempt to finish up with a fishless cycle or was it an overdose of ammonia that did it? And how can we know which is was?
 
 
Note: Because the thread from which I quoted is from a site to which FF does not permit linking, I am unable to cite the source. However, should anybody want to read the entire thread please feel free to PM me for the link.

 

[daizeUK]

I am now also a bit miffed with daize. She has intimated that my suggestion that one can cycle with plants in place was the reason she killed her liverwort. Now she posts that she overdosed ammonia at least once. We know that plants have a variable tolerance for ammonia- it is not universal. So now I wonder what actually might have killed the plant. Was it the attempt to finish up with a fishless cycle or was it an overdose of ammonia that did it? And how can we know which is was?

Can't blame you or argue with your conclusions. Your recommendation as I understood it was to add 3ppm ammonia to a planted tank so if I mistakenly added 4pm then that was my fault and the death of any plants certainly cannot be attributed to your methods.

I will add that the majority of my plants which included java ferns, moss, crypts and pogostemon were none the worse after being subjected to 4ppm ammonia.

Also I did not personally see any evidence that the 4ppm of ammonia caused any algae. I cannot attribute the diatoms to the ammonia and I saw no other problematic algae in my tank.

Plant health and algae were my main concerns so I have no further objections based on personal experience. If three-fingers or someone else would like to post further examples or evidence that ammonia can destroy planted tanks with algae or plain toxicity then I'd be very interested to hear it.

I also accept your argument that bacteria and plants are not in competition for resources.

But, let's be clear, the original intent of this thread was to help a brand new fishkeeper who wanted to have some plants in their tank, and was doing CO2.  This person had never done a cycle before, and was seeking some guidance.  Ultimately, that is the person that the proposed article would be helping.

Agreed - this person falls into my middle category of high-tech and most likely heavily planted. It's a good example of a new fishkeeper who will have more than just a 'few' plants and will also be dealing with CO2 and ferts. He may choose one or two 'advanced' plants to try out and may not get everything right first time. I just wanted to make clear that these are not indicators we can use to assume that a person knows what they are doing without instructions.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I agree Daize... he probably would fall into your second category.  But, I think that the basic tenets of the outline I mentioned previously would work for him.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Daize- here is what I wonder. In your case let us suppose that you had only dded ammonia to 2 ppm? that was really more than sufficient for what you stocking appears to be. I think your 3 weeks would have been shortened. I would assume by about a week maybe more.
 
What I see in partially planted tanks they remind me of seeding bacteria by moving stuff over from and established tank. In both cases we know they can process some amount of amount of ammonia, but not how much for certain. In both case the way to find out is to dose and test. Now comes the difference. In some instances with plants the proper test may be 1,2 or 3 ppm. In beginner fishless its always 3 ppm.
 
Knowing which ppm to pick is what make the whole cycling with plants thing more complex in many ways. There are no easy formulas, merely guidelines. One can use them to establish a good starting point and work from there. I know, I have used various regimens. The trick is to err on the safe side when we are wrong. I really do want to do the article on this. it will tell the more heavy planters to do their 'silent cycle" thing. But for many of the folks who will have a tank with a few plants or that is lightly planted, I will offer them a way to plant and cycle with success.
 
I do not disagree with Tom Barr that adding ammonium to tanks in fishless cycling amounts regularly will cause algae. But I do not want folks to be adding that much or that often. And. to understand the difference, one has to realize the time frames and readings will differ a lot between a plant in cycle and an unplanted fishless. From the very first dose, the partially planted (and hopefully seeded to some extent as well) tank will have totally different readings than the plantless tank- even if both are dose with the same ppm.
 
Right away both the plants and the bacteria they carry will go to work on any ammonia added. Not so in the the fishless tank. If you have lowered the dose to 2 ppm and have a number of plants and they are mostly nutrient hogs, they can clear a lot of ammonia. So on day two your ammonia has dropped by a third or half while in the fisless its still at starting levels. Now, if in that fishless cycled tank we had added some amount of seed bacteria, that would also accelerate its rate of progress. But the planted tank will often still have the edge since it needs fewer nitrite bacteria. Plants take in ammonium but don't put out nitrite or nitrate. So the planted tank is ready faster.
 
The other factor is when you have a new fish keeper cycle to 3 ppm, it leaves room for error. It should be low enough to avoid over dosing ammonia and over creating nitrite, but high enough to mean under cycling is not likely to be a killer. The odds are that most folks would do just fine cycling to 2 ppm. But here if they under cycle it might be a problem. So I set it in about the middle. And in the case of light stocking, one might even get away with under 2 ppm safely. But remember, for the newer person it needs to be simple easy and likely to work out just fine despite some mistakes. But for most folks 3 ppm will work, especially for a few plants only.
 
I am sure some plants will succumb to ammonia. I do not know which or now much. I also know that some plants can suck up ammonium and love it. I have had a few occasions where the amount of plants I had in a new tank caused me not to able to read any ammonia a few hours after adding it. I began to think my kit was bad and dosed ammonia into a bucket of water and tested and it went off the scale. The plants and bacteria that were in the tank just sucked up 3 ppm or more without blinking. These were the instantly cycled tanks I sometimes mention.
 
Anyway thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

 

[ian]

Some food for thought here...most written by scientists.

http/www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/nitrogen-cycle-in-a-planted-tank-with-new-filter.28292/

http/www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/should-i-fishless-cycle-a-new-planted-tank.27103/page-2

http/www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/best-way-to-start-a-planted-tank.18200/#post-186371

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nothing new there in terms of this discussion. Its all geared toward the more serious plant person. Those who put plants first and fish second in most cases. I have never argued against the methods espoused in those posts. What I do ask is where do those posts in any way help a newbie who wants two things, a few plants in their tank and to stock it ASAP?
 
Look at how difficult it is with all the information on fishless cycling to prevent folks from still going fish in? Look at the cycling article here. Look at how direct and simple it is. Then look in the threads with questions re cycling. I see no way that folks just getting started will get things close to right when you throw in silent cycling, fertilizing regimens, lighting issues etc. on top of everything else newer hobbyists need to learn about and to master to have a healthy tank.
 
I have taken the journey from fake to real plants. From low light to high light with pressurized gas. I have watched a lot of other people take the same path. What I have seen is none of us would have had much success had we tried to start at the end of that path instead of the beginning.
 
I cycled my first tank with fish, too many fish to be honest. I had to take a bunch back to the store. Now I never cycle tanks, I set them up and fully stock. I know lots of hobbyists who do the same. But we all had to learn a number of things over time before we could do this.  The same applies to live plants in tanks. It is one thing to add a few java ferns, moss or anubias to a new tank vs pulling off a silent cycle.
 
But I would ask this of the plant mavens. How would you explain plants and cycling in plain simple terms so that it was good information for both the 1st time fish keeper who wants just a couple plants and then covering every level of planting up to the silent cycling level? How will you help those new younger fish keepers with limited resources? How will you help the people who can barely grasp the cycling process yet?
 
I keep asking this same question of the folks who advocate heavily planting and silent cycles with gradual stocking but what comes back is the same old song. It looks only at the more experienced end and seems completely to ignore the rest of the hobby, the people just starting out or having only a few months or a year or two of experience with a single small tank.