Cycling Again - Fish In. Advice Needed.

[schmee]

Hi

Due to a problem with the filter, my tank is re-cycling. (read more) So far i have lost 2 shrimp and i hope this will be all the casualties.

i'm not so clear about the chemistry of it all and my first cycle was a bit of a wait and see, using fish food and test strips! Therefore, i'd really appreciate feedback on where i am, what to expect, when to stop frequent pwc, whether not to feed. i'll post my water stats in this thread. i'm generally doing 2 pwc per day but will try and up this to three. i'm aware the tank is overstocked, i'm actually in the process of moving some bodies but need to cycle the new tanks as well. The problem is not caused by this however and there are usually no problems with a once weekly pwc.

Recent stats, since the problem started:

Friday:

pH 6.4
NH3: 0.50
NO-2: 0
NO-3: 20

i immediately did a 75% pwc.

Later i tested again and found:
pH: 6.4
NH3: 0.25
NO-2:0
NO-3: 0-5

I did a 60% pwc.

Saturday

NH3: 0
NO-2: 2.0
NO-3: 0

So, I did another PWC around 60-70%

Later:

NH3: 0
NO-2: 0.25
NO-3: 0

Sunday:

NH3 0.50
NO-2 0.25
NO-3 0

60% pwc

After:

NH3 0.25
NO-2 0
NO-3 0


Today:

NH3 0-0.25
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

60% pwc.

Now:

NH3 0
NO-2 0
NO-3 0


What should i expect next?

 

[schmee]

Another question. Light is one 8 hrs per day. Should it not be while going through this cycle? Never thought about light in that respect before.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the light won't make any odds to a fish in cycle.

sounds like you are controlling the situation fairly well with the current level of water changes. you need to keep both ammonia and nitrite under 0.25ppm, don't be afraid of big water changes, in this situation the bigger the better. take as much water out as you dare, so long as the fish have a couple of inches to swim in they'll be OK for a short period while you do it, if you can do 90% water changes it means you can probably get away with doing less of them.

for now, test the water as often as you can and anytime you get a reading above 0 for either ammonia or nitrite you do a big water change, test a few minutes after the water change and if the levels of ammmonia and nitrite are above 0.25ppm then you need to do another water change, if it's 0.25ppm or below you can leave it for a while.

eventually you'll get to the point that when you first test the water ammonia and nitrite both read 0, if that happens you don't need to do a water change, keep up the frequent testing though. what you'll probably find is at first you may need to do 2/3 water changes a day to keep it under control but after a while it'll be one a day and then maybe one every other day.

you're deemed to have finished the cycle when you get 0 readings for ammonia and nitrite for 2 days straight with no water changes although it's advisable to keep a close eye on the readings for the next week or so.

 

[schmee]

Thank you so much!

OK, i checked again. i haven't done a wc since the last reading which was after a wc this morning.

New readings:

NH3 0-0.25
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

i say between 0 and 0.25 because that's where the colour was. So i'll leave it and check again this evening, probably do a big water change then, depending on results but i imagine it will be higher.

i don;t understand how i will ever have any nitrates though, if i'm doing so many pwc. Am i being silly? Are the bacteria building up in the new filter through this process? i presume the fish waste and food is the ammnonia source in this case and the wc are to try and save my fish? Sorry, i really have a block about this whole process, which is not ideal.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yes fish produce ammonia through their waste, there is one species of bacteria (we'll call them A-Bacs) that convert this ammonia to nitrite. there is then a completely separate species of bacteria (N-Bacs) that convert the nitrite to nitrate.

the ammonia is most dangerous to the fish, nitrite next worst (although only in the same way being shot is worse than being stabbed, they're still both pretty bad) and nitrate is largely safe unless it's in very high concentrations.

the bacteria are currently building up in your filter, don't worry that you're taking away their food by doing water changes, all you're removing is the excess ammonia and nitrite that they haven't been able to process themselves, as soon as you've done the water change the fish will start producing more ammonia. Your first priority now has to be looking after the fish not the bacteria, they'll take care of themselves but it'll just take time.

 

[schmee]

Woke up to find a cory dead in the filter output. This doesn't make sense to me at all. There is no way of a fish or anything getting into the filter, it is covered in some tights for that reason. This was one of the larger corys as well (pygmaeus though so not too big!) The only opening which is not covered is the output because it makes no sense that anything could get into there, it is propelling water away not sucking it in. i have the flow controller nozzle on and it is turned down low beacuse betta doesn't appreciate it but the water coming out still moves with some force. i just don't understand. Part of his tail was missing and he looked just a bit mangled, or perhaps just bloated. One of his barbels was missing as well. Ammnonia was only 0.25 - 0.50 this morning though, i would imagine it means that he can't have been dead long but who knows? When the shrimp died, the tank water actually smelled.

Anyway, stats last night:

NH3 0-0.25
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

and this morning:

NH3 0.25-0.50
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

Did a 75% pwc.


Can anyone shed any light on why/how my cory died? If he was just dead somewhere else it would make sense but how did he get in and might this happen again? i'm concerned he might have actually gone through the filter somehow but i cannot see how. Feel very bad for letting this happen.

 

[schmee]

Tonight:

NH3 0
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

 

[schmee]

This morning:

NH3 0.25
NO-2 0
NO-3 0

How frustrating!

How long does this process (fish-in) usually take? i know it's only been 5 days but i hate thinking my fish are in danger. Corys are looking happier today though, shoaling and being active as opposed to hiding in a cave. Nobody looks unwell still but i'm worried because of the pygmy death yesterday. i still don't understand what could have happened.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

hi schmee, without looking at the filter i can't honestly say how the cory got in there, i would suggest it probably died and then got sucked into the filter somehow rather than swimming in there.

it's very hard to predict how long the cycle will go on for unfortunately, for some people it's a few days to a week, some people it can be a few months.

usually if the tank had previously been cycled some bacteria would have survived which means you only get a mini-cycle which by definition is shorter than a normal fish-in cycle where you are starting from scratch. you're doing the right thing though, just keep it up.

 

[schmee]

i hope it is over soon, it;s so tiring!
Well, yesterday, i had the results posted before and then later the same again. So, I didn't actually do a water change yesterday as ammonia never went over 0.25. Is this right though? What if that happened for days?
i'll check again in a moment.

i'm worried that this will not be a mini cycle because as it happened when i had to change filter and had just changed substrate, i think the likelihood of any bacteria having survived is pretty slim. Might ask lfs if i can steal any media, they're pretty unfriendly in there though.

On the upside, i have a nice little 'baby' java fern, the first one that looks like it will actually come to anything

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah it really is hard work isn't it

no level of ammonia is completely safe for fish other than 0ppm, in an ideal world we would advise everyone doing a fish-in cycle to keep the ammonia and nitrite at 0 at all times with water changes. however in the real world where we have jobs and other commitments that level of water changes is simply not possible for most people so we tend to advise that you just need to keep it at 0.25ppm or below. in most cases the fish will be OK at this level as long as it's not for pro-longed periods although there's no doubt that keeping it at 0 is better.

so if you have days like that where it stays at 0.25ppm you can probably get away with not doing a water change if time constraints etc don't allow it, however if you have the time then it definitely won't hurt to do one.

it's quite positive news though that the level of ammonia is holding quite steady and at a low level, that's the sort of thing that indicates you might not have too long left to go before you start to see 0 readings without water changes.

good news on the java fern though

 

[schmee]

Ok good, i'm cautiously optimistic!

Yes, i thought it wasn't good to have any ammonia but was worried i shouldn't be doing too many water changes, somebody put a post it on my head: the bacteria are not going to die or run out of food if i change the water!!

Well, i had 0.50ppm ammonia this morning so did a big pwc and tonight it is 0.25ppm. i have a lot on at the moment so am only getting to check about twice a day but it seems to be not too bad despite only one pwc a day if that at the moment. i will check again in the morning and probably do a wc even if it is still 0.25.

On the baby front, i also have a new baby snail, still attached to its mamma. Cute! i don;t want to be overrun with snails again and i said i'd just have one and get rid of any babies, but they are too cute, so i have two bubbas about at the moment. Most get eaten pretty early on so we'll see what happens, but the original snail has been there since before anybody else so he/she has earnt their right!

Ps. stupid question i think, i've been advised to use filter start or something called something similar to that to boost my bacteria. Now, i thought those sorts of things were a con, a load of rubbish and i'm not that happy about putting chemicals in my tank as i don;t other than tapsafe. But this was reccommended by someone who has been keeping fish for years and seems to know their stuff (unfortunately not local, so i can;t steal some of her media). Just thought i'd check it's not worth it, right?

 

[waterdrop]

I'd not fool with the filter start. WD

 

[schmee]

Thanks, i thought not but as i wasn't expecting that advice, i thought i'd ask.

Yesterday:

Morning:

NH3 0.50
NO-2 0

75% pwc

7pm

NH3 0.25
NO-2 0

Today:

8am:

NH3 0.50
NO-2 0

75% pwc

 

[schmee]

Last night:

NH3 0.25
NO-2 0

This morning:

NH3 0.50
NO-2 0

75% pwc