Corydoras have finally been closely analyzed, and...

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I propose "spidies". Let's confuse everyone into thinking we've all just started keeping aquatic arachnids.

I also second this motion.

(spiders are also fascinating, from a safe distance or to read about - but not nearly as appealing to have in my home as the newly named "spidies")

The last species mentioned in the video, as yet unclassified? Also looks like some kind of mix between an oto and a goby of some kind. Wonder whether they fill a similar ecological niche?

 

[JackGulley]

I wonder if the Catholic Latin Mass comes closer to the correct accent and pronunciation. But then Middle Ages Latin probably did sound like Virgil.

There actually is some fascinating study into the original pronunciation of Latin! Ecclesiastical Latin is more like Latin with a medieval Italian accent. Classical Latin never turned the letter c/g into an s or ch, it was always /k/. And the -um word ending was probably not pronounced “-oom” with a long u, as the letters would suggest, but like a nasalized version of the vowel in English “book” ([ʊ̃] for linguists). They’ve been able to figure this out based on how those sounds turned out in the Romance languages, which basically evolved from bizarre colloquial/low class accents of Latin, not the classical kind. We think of them as beautiful and romantic, but a Roman person would probably think they sounded really cringy and ridiculous.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

This was posted by Ian Fuller in the Taxonomy & Science News forum on Planetcatfish last month.

Angelica C Dias, Luiz F C Tencatt, Fabio F Roxo, Gabriel de Souza da Costa Silva, Sérgio A Santos, Marcelo R Britto, Martin I Taylor, Claudio Oliveira, Phylogenomic analyses in the complex Neotropical subfamily Corydoradinae (Siluriformes: Callichthyidae) with a new classification based on morphological and molecular data, Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2024;, zlae053, https://doi.org/10.1093/zoolinnean/zlae053
Published: 11 June 2024

Abstract​

The family Callichthyidae, which comprises the subfamilies Corydoradinae and Callichthyinae, represents one of the largest families within the Siluriformes. Corydoradinae, the largest subfamily of Callichthyidae, alone accounts for >200 valid species, with new species being described frequently. This subfamily holds significant popularity among catfish enthusiasts worldwide, mainly because Corydoras are small, peaceful, and colourful fishes. Recognizing the existence of polyphyletic groups within Corydoradinae, the aim of this study was to construct a new phylogenetic hypothesis using genomic data (ultraconserved elements) and to re-evaluate the synonymized genera using the most recent morphological data. Our results supported the monophyly of Corydoradinae and identified seven distinct groups of species, each one with an associated pre-available generic name. These genera, namely Corydoras, Aspidoras, Scleromystax, Gastrodermus (resurrected), Osteogaster (resurrected), Brochis (resurrected), and Hoplisoma (resurrected), were all validated based on evidence derived from molecular and morphological analyses. A taxonomic key for the Corydoradinae genera is provided.

Unfortunately, open access to the full paper is not available. You need to be able to use institutional credentials to view it or else to pay for it. https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean...nnean/zlae053/7691278?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'm trying to, but really struggling with the new names for the species I know - is there a cheat sheet that's less intimidating for us dunces who are finding it difficult to remember which new group various species are in or list of name changes?

For example, I was using this:

https://www.planetcatfish.com/media/corydoradinae_lineages(2020).pdf

Which does look very useful! But especially for those of us unfamiliar with Latin who just memorised previous names, I'm finding myself a bit lost! Hate to admit that.

As an example - I'm fond of what we'd commonly refer to as the three "dwarf Corydoras", formally known as hasbrosus, pygmaeus, and hastatus.

Now looking at that list, I see there are more than the three 'microcorydoras'? Maybe the others are described but not in the hobby?

I can also see that pgymaeus and hastatus are in lineage 4, but written as C.pygmaeus and C.hastatus still (I know they all still belong to the wider Corydoradinae family (genus?) While C.hasbrosus is in Lineage 9 with (Hoplosoma) in brackets, but still written as C hasbrosus?

I wonder if a branching family tree as shown in the video @GaryE kindly shared might help me, but I can't find one!

@CassCats You're good at this! And in your gorgeous pics in your thread you've written the new names for your fish! You have pygmaeus too, but as Gastrodermus pygmaeus? If shorthanding that in Latin, would you write C. pygmaeus still? Or G.Pgymaeus?

I'm so lost and confused! Feeling like a idiot, but would really like to learn this! I don't even know what species I have now, what to call them.

 

[GaryE]

All I can figure is to take a ballpoint pen and write it on my arm. It's going to take some time to remember these names - we're so used to Corydoras. We still hadn't convinced half the hobby that the singular of Corydoras was not "a corydora".

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Think I need memberships to Corydoras World and/or Planet Catfish.
But when I don't even know the species names of my own fish, I'd only make a fool of myself there. Too intimidated.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

All that really matters is that corys adore us, and we return the favor.

In my early school years one was required to study Latin. I hated it. So even though I understand the importance of the way fish species get defined and named, I have a mental block on using Latin. Sometimes, all we have to identify a fish is its Latin name. But it is very easy to sprain your tongue when it comes to pronouncing some of the names.

I have only kept one African cichlid, it was not from the rift lakes but was a riverine fish--> Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi. I just called them nickel fish. I have no trouble pronouncing the L numbers for some of my plecos. I will not even try to master the new cory terminology, it is beyond me now,

Te audire non possum est. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

 

[GaryE]

Cory adore us. I like that.

The old name's not brochis it? Scleromystax and Aspidoras are names that have been around. It's that these really cool fish haven't. Osteogaster, gastrodermus and Hoplisoma are going to be where the trouble is for me.

Where I live, we switch back and forth from English and French, and swear in Italian. So fish names in Latin don't bug me once I've learned them. With Latin, I only need to know one name to talk to an Austrian, a french speaker, a fishnerd anglo, a Japanese person...

Te audire non possum est. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

I learned that from Monty Python. It means "my hovercraft is full of eels", right?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

All that really matters is that corys adore us, and we return the favor.

True!

In my early school years one was required to study Latin.

My school wasn't nearly posh enough for that!

Although I remember in I think our GCSE year, or the year before, that there was an optional basic Latin class.
I only remember having a chat with a friend on mine who had signed up and asked me if I was going to as well, and I thought "When will I ever need to know a dead language?"

I was old enough to know it's used in medicine, grew up with lots of animals and reference books that would often list the Latin names next to common names. I was pretty good in biology, so I must have known how essential it is in botany too... but somehow, it didn't register with me then how useful it could be to have at least a little grounding in it.

I just remember already feeling overwhelmed with the amount of mandatory work we had to do, so taking on an extra, optional class was the last thing I wanted to do. I struggled enough with French and German too, so thought I'd have a hard time with it.

Wish I had taken it though!

Did do a search for learning Latin online

I hated it. So even though I understand the importance of the way fish species get defined and named, I have a mental block on using Latin. Sometimes, all we have to identify a fish is its Latin name. But it is very easy to sprain your tongue when it comes to pronouncing some of the names.

Two of my closest friends are from when I went to college to study animal care. But I lived in dorms on campus where most of the students were studying horticulture and land management. So now one works in the horticultural industry, other is a landscape architect. I used to help them revise the lists of Latin names for their tests, but it didn't stick in my brain.

I do love going on walks or to a garden centre or something with them though, pointing at something "what's that?" and they can reel off a ton of Latin! I'm always impressed, lol.

I know the Latin names for a few plants, whether house, outdoor or aquarium, even if I might need to double check the spellings for some of them! I know that "aster" means star, since it's used so often for plants with star shaped leave or petals.

That's about it though!

I have only kept one African cichlid, it was not from the rift lakes but was a riverine fish--> Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi. I just called them nickel fish.

I attempted it! The Pseudo part is easy enough since it's used in psychology too, and I can break it down if I read it, but yes, that's a tongue tripper! I also know it'll fall out of my brain the moment I finish this comment...

When I went to the fish event Sunday, met a lovely young couple who were both fish mad, and also both worked at a Maidenhead Aquatics. They're the ones who gave me the Megalechis thoracata when it hadn't sold by the end of the event and they were packing up and giving away their unsold stock. Tried to give me a pair of geophagus too, but I know even less about caring for those except that they're "earth-eaters", and luckily someone else wanted them!

Anyhow, I was asking about sourcing Pseudomugil species, that I was on the hunt for some, and when I tried to say "pseudomugil" she corrected my pronounciation! But I can't remember how it's meant to be said! Grrr.

Te audire non possum est. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

Translation thingy online says that means: "I can't hear you. The muse of the wise is fixed in the ear"?

Saw something else about bananas though!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

"I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear."

Vescere bracis meis.
Eat my shorts.

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota
monax materiam possit materiari?
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Non sum pisces.
I am not a fish.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
I came; I saw; I stuck around.

 

[CassCats]

I'm trying to, but really struggling with the new names for the species I know - is there a cheat sheet that's less intimidating for us dunces who are finding it difficult to remember which new group various species are in or list of name changes?

For example, I was using this:

https://www.planetcatfish.com/media/corydoradinae_lineages(2020).pdf

Which does look very useful! But especially for those of us unfamiliar with Latin who just memorised previous names, I'm finding myself a bit lost! Hate to admit that.

As an example - I'm fond of what we'd commonly refer to as the three "dwarf Corydoras", formally known as hasbrosus, pygmaeus, and hastatus.

Now looking at that list, I see there are more than the three 'microcorydoras'? Maybe the others are described but not in the hobby?

I can also see that pgymaeus and hastatus are in lineage 4, but written as C.pygmaeus and C.hastatus still (I know they all still belong to the wider Corydoradinae family (genus?) While C.hasbrosus is in Lineage 9 with (Hoplosoma) in brackets, but still written as C hasbrosus?

I wonder if a branching family tree as shown in the video @GaryE kindly shared might help me, but I can't find one!

@CassCats You're good at this! And in your gorgeous pics in your thread you've written the new names for your fish! You have pygmaeus too, but as Gastrodermus pygmaeus? If shorthanding that in Latin, would you write C. pygmaeus still? Or G.Pgymaeus?

I'm so lost and confused! Feeling like a idiot, but would really like to learn this! I don't even know what species I have now, what to call them.

It would be G. Pygmaeus now, but personally if I see someone using the old terms I'd know what they meant and not come down on them for it.

It's a learning curb for me still, won't lie. I have the sheet saved on my phone for reference if I need to check it, but I've memorized the new names for the species I currently own.

Hastatus and Pygmaeus are now Gastrodermus mixed in with the old lineage 5 group (elegans, napoensis, etc) which before this name change I've been told that lineage 5 was already most closely related to the "microdoras" group" so it makes sense to me that they're now merged, with exception of habrosus--which face it, it's body morphology wasn't the same as pygmaeus or hastatus despite its small size.

The ones that blow my mind is the merging of one's like ambiacus, agassizii, etc into brochis!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I have the sheet saved on my phone for reference if I need to check it,

Please please link the sheet here! I need a cheat sheet!

Unless you mean one you made yourself for your own species?

I have another tab where I'm editing my signature to include the Latin names of the fish I have. With the new ones as well, finding it a challenge to find the new Latin names for them all!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

It would be G. Pygmaeus now, but personally if I see someone using the old terms I'd know what they meant and not come down on them for it.

I think because I'm about to join the Corydoras World site/forum, I'm a bit intimidated, and don't want to make a fool of myself!
But to be fair, I'll likely just be lurking and reading for a long time. Perhaps seeing the Latin names often will help them sink in.

It's a learning curb for me still, won't lie.

(psst, it's learning *curve*! But I'm betting that was autocorrect) I'm so relieved to hear that you're also finding it tricky to adjust! I've been coming down hard on myself for not being able to easily memorise them. But perhaps others are also having to look them up, and I'm not just a simpleton!

Hastatus and Pygmaeus are now Gastrodermus mixed in with the old lineage 5 group (elegans, napoensis, etc) which before this name change I've been told that lineage 5 was already most closely related to the "microdoras" group" so it makes sense to me that they're now merged, with exception of habrosus--which face it, it's body morphology wasn't the same as pygmaeus or hastatus despite its small size.

True! For general hobby purposes, it was handy to refer to them as the three dwarf cories that are widely available in stores etc. But yes, hasbrosus is definitely shaped very differently. Hastatus makes me think of tetras too. Like a little cory tetra!

The ones that blow my mind is the merging of one's like ambiacus, agassizii, etc into brochis!

Yes! Even when it makes sense, it's going to take some getting used to. I also keep thinking of my newly acquired Megalechis thoracata as a Hoplosternum, and it threw me for a loop when I read your thread and saw you (stunningly chunky, deeply coloured and healthy looking!) sterbai are now called Hoplosternum sterbai! I have sterbai too, gonna have to get they hang of this!

 

[CassCats]

Fun fact, hyphessobrycon elachys is the tetra that G. Hastatus mimics and shoals with

If G. Hastatus didn't cost $25 each for me, I'd have considered them too for my Paraguay setup, but alas.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Fun fact, hyphessobrycon elachys is the tetra that G. Hastatus mimics and shoals with

Oh wow, I didn't know that!
I'm gonna take that as a sign that my instincts are good, lol. Makes sense now that they're more of a mid-water swimmer too!

I knew certain sub-species of otos are often found near specific species of cories (or whatever those species are named now) seemingly as a mimic/safer among the cories and in numbers thing, but didn't know about this! Nice.

If G. Hastatus didn't cost $25 each for me, I'd have considered them too for my Paraguay setup, but alas.
View attachment 346316View attachment 346317

They're gorgeous! £25 per fish is.. ouch! I can see why you opted for something else!