Contradicting Advice (N03 Levels)

At a mere 1 1/2to 2 weeks in the new location, I am going to guess that you have an incompletely cycled filter. You have a distinct advantage over most new hobbyists, you have a close relative / friend with a cycled filter. Try talking to them about giving you a sample of the filter media in their filter to jump start your own filter. With multiple tanks in my home, I often can get a new one fully cycled in less than a week by simply using the filter in one tank to begin the process of cycling a new one. A donation of some media, even swapping for some of your less mature filter media, would put you well on the way to a mature filter on your tank. As long as the mature filter gives up less than 1/3 of its media, it should not be harmed by the donation.
 
We purchased a JBL Combi Test kit, (including free amonia test) at weekend.

Readings as follows for the 8/8/10

Temp 25.8 c
PH 6.5
NH4 <0.05
No2 1.0
No3 10
Fe <0.02

We then conducted a 40% water change 9/8/10, and have done another set of tests today.

Readings as follows for the 11/8/10

Temp 25.5 c
PH 6.5
NH4 0.2
No2 0.4
No3 10
Fe <0.02

From what I understand of the Nitrogen Cycle, we should see Ammonium decrease, as it is broken down to Nitrite, we should observe NO2 increase, and again decrease as the NO2 is broken down into NO3, which should increase.

I don't understand what is happening with the tank? help!

BTW, We're still only feeding once, every other day.
 
What is happening to your tank is easy. You are getting a minor build of ammonia from the fish and it is not being processed at all. You have done a large enough water change to remove some ammonia and some nitrites but the ammonia is returning due to the fish that are present.
Your chemical contaminant levels are too high and are going to be affecting your fish. At the low pH, the ammonia is a bit less toxic than at other values of pH but the nitrites are even more toxic. Please start doing large enough water changes to get both the nitrites and the ammonia level to less than 0.25 ppm. You may have a longer than usual cycle since your pH is so close to the value where it would stall completely. Right now that would be over 50% based on your present readings.
 
As usual, excellent and clear advice from oldman47. I certainly agree with it and would only offer that one way to think about it is that you are to be the "manual" filter for your fish tank. A filter is busy removing a lot of toxins from the water each day and when you haven't yet got a working filter, you have to manually change water and "be the filter" for your fish! Does this make sense?

~~waterdrop~~
 
Thanks you for your replies.

Yeah now you've explained that, it all makes sense.

I'll get the toxins sorted in the water, and then increase the Ph.

On another note, we've found a more LFS who seem to be much more helpful, and whilst having a perfect chance to sell us all sorts on our last visit, offered us some sound advice rather than been sales based. (they are also cheaper too) :good:
 
We've been continuing with out water changes, conducting 50% changes every week, still adding 10ml Denitrol everyday, feeding the fish once, every other day.

Readings as follows for the 18/8/10

Temp 26.1 c
PH 7
NH4 3
No2 0.025
No3 10


Readings as follows for the 22/8/10

Temp 26.7 c
PH 7
NH4 1.5
No2 <0.01
No3 15

We've seen Ammonium half, Nitrite drop, but the Nitrate increase.

I thought we would see ammonium drop, nirtite increase, not Nitrate.

With the PH been low, the NH4 isn't too hazardous to the fish... correct me if I am wrong?

Many thanks in advance.

Dave & Viv :good:
 
The pH is not nearly low enough to make the NH4 less hazardous. It appears that the ammonia is being processed poorly but is making it all the way through to nitrates rather than causing a nitrite spike. You are still not doing enough water changes to take care of the ammonia or the nitrates so things do not bode well for your fish's futures.
 
Hi Dave and Viv,

I was reading through your thread again and realized that you are probably experiencing something that many of us members have experienced in the past. The assumption that the LFS is the place for advice dies hard. Its a very compelling feeling that the place that sells you fish and equipment must know a lot about the hobby and its also usually the only place for face to face conversation about the topic. In parallel with this, a web forum seems potentially random and possibly filled with people not to be trusted.

In your case I think you've been given advice to use a method where a "bacteria in a bottle" type product (the JBL) is supposed to be in the tank to "start the bacterial colonies" and that it shouldn't be diluted by water changes. When our forum advocates large water changes, this causes some conflict with what you've heard from the LFS and as a result you are ending up with actions that are a blend of the two types of advice. I probably haven't got this quite right, but anyway that's my attempt across the distances.

In my own case I can tell you it took the better part of a year before my skepticism about this forum finally broke down and I realized that the collective information and knowledge of the serious hobbyists here simply blew the doors off of the kinds of advice usually coming from stores and many other information sources. Over time I also realized that even when there are fairly knowledgeable LFS staff who are hobbyists themselves, they are often in a situation where they must bow to the business people in charge or they themselves have had to accept that bottles of potions need to "move" from the store shelves to keep the cash flow going and have come to view it as a necessary evil. At times, in rare moments I've seen their true hobbyist selves show through.

The end result for me and many like me is that we now view advice from the store as if it were perhaps a single post here in the forum from a beginner or from an "intermediate" level hobbyist, something to perhaps take in, but not necessarily to base actions on. In fact, I've come to be quite cautious about allowing myself to get into conversations in the LFS as I've become more aware of my "vulnerability" as it were. The shelves of equipment and all the tanks become rather an "artificial weight of expertise" I believe.

The "bacteria in a bottle" products almost universally consist of organic material (including the long-dead remains of bacteria who have not had the oxygen and fresh water needed to stay alive) thus usually serving as nothing more than an indirect source of yet more ammonia in your cycling aquarium. Your fish (by respiring with their gills), fish waste, excess fish food and live plant debris are all already doing the same thing. The two species of bacteria you are trying to grow in the filter (the "cycling" of the filter) are just very slow growers, no two ways about it. The fish ammonia is more than enough to feed the fledgling bacteria during the fish-in cycle, which always takes about a month or more.

Meanwhile, while the bacteria are growing with excruciating slowness, the real issue becomes the problem of trying to keep your fish from having permanent gill damage from the ammonia or permanent nerve damage from the nitrite(NO2). We know that this happens at about 0.25ppm (of either toxin) (a tiny amount if you think about it) for some species and that even trace amounts below this can be stressful or less than ideal. What the experienced aquarists have learned is that it can take quite large water changes, quite frequently, to get the water down to these safe levels on a continuing basis. To some beginners it can seem a bit nutty and reckless at first, like they are repeatedly disturbing their fish. Eventually though, they begin to see the less stressed behavior of the fish when the toxins are absent and realize that this advice has been correct all along. Dosing bottled bacteria products and being stingy on water change percentage is all about retaining customers, not about giving fish healthy water.

~~waterdrop~~
(sorry :lol: , I think you got the effect of my morning coffee!)
 
wow waterdrop!! that is some absolutely fantastic and sound advice!! I think someone should maybe write up the pros and cons of LFS advice and the lotions and potions they sale us, so that the newbies (me) and others can read up and see what LFS can say that contradicts views of experienced fish keepers.
I bought a new tank about 2 weeks back, just fully cycled fishlessly in that time by using mature media from other tanks. Just adding my fish today!! :D But really i think as you dad or uncle (cant remeber who it was) keeps fish then plead him to give you some mature media, can only give your original media a fantastic boost!!

Hope you dont loose any more fishes!!
james
 

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