Contradicting Advice (N03 Levels)

[daveNviv]

We set up our tank several weeks/months ago, with a white sand substrate, but chose to replace it with gravel and have done so.

During the process we re-located the tank into a more suitable position, and left it for the water to settle, for another week or two.

Last friday, we visited our LFS, purchased out first batch of fish.

5 Neon Tetra's
5 Black Tetra's
3 Cory's
1 Plec

returned home and added these to the tank, and all was fine, and we chose to add some more fish a few days later, in total now housing,

15 neons,
5 black tetra's
3 corys
1 plec
4 guppys.

However, I returned home from a day or two later to find one of our Neons dead, and removed him from the tank. The following day, one of the cory's appeared quite subdued, and on closer inspection, appeared to have signs of white spot. I contacted the LFS we bought them from, who asked to see a water sample, and upon testing found the NO3 to be high.

Their advice was to add 10ml of JBL denitrol everyday, which should increase bacteria in the tank to break down the NO3, and to trust them, and not conduct a water changes, and refrain from feeding them for several days...

We followed their advice, however the two other cory's began to show simular behaviour, so last night decided to conduct a small water change (about 10l, in our 60l tank), checking the NO3 again today it still remains too high, and have since changed another 10l of water.

What I think we have done is prematurely over stocked the tank, and it hasn't finished it's cycle. (which might explain the cloudy/hazy water prior to adding fish)

Since carrying out the water changes the fish seem to be improving.

Do I keep conducting small water changes until I see the NO3 level off?
What is the best way to conduct a Waterchange? I've been filling a bucket with water, adding aquasafe and leaving it overnight to warm, as the tank is at room temprature at the minute.
What is the best value for money testing kit available? (budget about £20-£30)

Cheers in advance
Dave - currently in the dog house for killing the fish

 

[VaegaVic]

.

 

[Mo1959]

Hiya. Seems to be an awful lot of bad advice from fish shops just now. You have quite a large stock of fish and it doesn't sound like your tank is properly cycled yet. Ignore the fish shop's advice of not changing water as the ammonia and nitrite levels are probably building up and adversely affecting your fish. You will know better when you get your test kit. The API master freshwater kit is the one most commonly used around here I think. Check it out on ebay as you sometimes get it cheaper there than in the pet shops. Until you get it, I would advise doing quite a large water change initially, ie at least half and then doing 10% daily until you get things under control.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Dave and Welcome to TFF!

Good advice there from Mo and I agree one of the first actions you'll need is to pick up a good test kit such as the one mentioned. The test kit will help you determine your situation with respect to the "Fish-In Cycling Situation" you are potentially in currently.

Normally, experienced freshwater hobbyists spend several months applying a rather arcane skill to the preparation of a "working biofilter" that they know they need to have funtioning properly prior to the system being ready for fish. Beginners have rarely been given any insight into this whole process or its importance.

The basic magic of the "biofilter" comes from two specific species of bacteria (I find them quite interesting, they technically belong to a group we call "Chemolithoautotrophs," the "litho" part coming from the phrase "eaters of rock" (!) .. how interesting to see the "other side" of our earth life cycle, sort of the opposite of all of us "heterotrophs" who only eat organic material!) that carry out the two main stages of the "Nitrogen Cycle" of environmental science. (Note our writeups in our Beginners Resource Center.. the Nitrogen Cycle writeup and the two cycling writeups, the Fishless Cycle and the Fish-In Cycle.)

Anyway, your test kit will help you determine whether you are still in a "fish-in" cycle or whether you are finished and ready to learn good maintenance habits. Also, the members will need to know your tank volume as a basic parameter in understanding whether your present stocking is too large and helping you work towards a better stocking plan in the future.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to our forum DaveNViv.
As WD has indicated, you may well be in the middle of a fish-in cycle. What that would mean to me, if I had no way to measure the poisons in my tank, would be that I needed an immediate very large water change to control those possible poisons in my water. In my case, I would be going for a simple 80% or more water change. If the fish look much better after such a change, our guess about water quality has been right. I do have the testing kits and do not hesitate to do a 90% or higher water change when it is needed. If my fish are suffering from any chemical poison I am faced with a choice. I can either try to do exactly the right amount of water change to bring that poison within acceptable limits or I can do a huge water change to completely remove the poison from the environment. Most of the time I will choose to remove the poisons completely. What I call a 90% water change is when I drain so much water from the tank that things like guppies have trouble staying covered and then I refill the tank with temperature matched dechlorinated water. The fish always look much better after such a water change even if I was unable to measure any poisons in my water. When techniques like this one always seem to work, I do not hesitate to recommend them to a fairly new person.

 

[daveNviv]

we do have some tests, but are the dip stick kind, and don't seem to be accurate.

After a 10% water change the fish all seem happier. We're going to invest in a decent, accurate test kit.

 

[Curiosity101]

we do have some tests, but are the dip stick kind, and don't seem to be accurate.

After a 10% water change the fish all seem happier. We're going to invest in a decent, accurate test kit.

Don't forget the big water changes until you actually purchase the test kit!

Oh and judging by the advice you've recieved so far from your LFS, ignore all future advice. The 'magic potions' they sell are there to make the lfs money. They're not really neccesary. All you need for an average normal healthy tank is tap water and water conditioner.
Oh and you don't need to leave water overnight if you have a conditioner, either use hot water from the tap or preferentially cold water that has been boiled in the kettle. Using your hand you can easily temperature match the bucket to the tank with enough accuracy.

By the way your fish are tropical fish... unless your house (and subsequently water) is a steady 24C then I suggest investing in a heater

And finally... could you give a timeline as to when you set the tank up...what fish you added when etc? And just to add (although already mentioned), you really do have a very large amount of fish for that sized tank. And I'd worry that the 'plec' is a common pleco that grows to 1-2ft long...

 

[daveNviv]

We're living in a 1st floor flat, have a heather installed, set a 25c, but it's not comming on, as the water is steady at room temp.

I need to source a larger container for doing water changes.

The tank was set up for weeks with a sand substrate, but replaced with gravel. we relocated the tank, and left it approx 1 1/2- 2 weeks, before adding our first lot of fish.

5 Neon Tetra's
5 Black Tetra's
3 Cory's
1 Plec


After about 3 days we added the 2nd lot (We did get a little carried away), which is a simular stock to what my partners dad has in a simular size tank.

We're using a Elite 60 tank, airstone, Fluvel 2plus filter, and 3 live plants.

As for the Plec, I don't think he's going to crow too large, I told the LFS what tank & fish we had, but their advice stands for nothing it appears.

 

[Curiosity101]

I would expect to see...

15 neons,
5 black tetra's
3 corys
1 plec
4 guppys.

In a 20gal tank min to be honest... especially as the corys should be in a group of 5 or more really, down to the fact they are a shoaling fish and so really appreciate being in a group.

Any chance you could get a pic of the plec? The fish shop has happily sent you home with all those fish with absolutely no advice about cycling or anything... they also said it was your nitrates that were the issue... So yes, there advice does count for nothing imo.

 

[daveNviv]

Here's our Plec...

I wouldn't be suprised if you tell it's something completely different!

 

[Curiosity101]

You can't post pictures like that. If you upload with photobucket or imageshack then post the url here I'll hopefully be able to tell you.

 

[daveNviv]

Sorry here he is.

and our tank... there is an airstone behind the submarine, which runs 24hrs.

 

[Curiosity101]

He looks like a baby bristlenose to me Although when I say he... I think I mean she.
Bristlenose pleco

You shouldn't need an airstone by the way. If it's there cause you like the bubbles then it's fine for it to be there. But don't keep it cause you think the fish need it, personally I've never found an air pump quiet enough for me to put up with it so I just use my filter for aeration.

 

[daveNviv]

Thanks for your help.

We're going to get the water tested again over the weekend at our LFS. (we continue to keep doing our dip stick tests)

The fish appear quite happy in the tank, but I am keeping a very close eye on them.

Once we get our water sorted out they should be more than happy.

 

[waterdrop]

Unfortunately, a visual inspection of your fish can be a misleading diagnostic tool with respect to ammonia and nitrite(NO2) damage. The fish will basically look fine to you right up to a short period before death. This is not to say that it isn't important to observe whether your fish are swimming and behaving normally (it is) but its just one of the reasons we perfer to have some good numerical primary data, especially when a tank is young (under 6 months since being set up.)

In your case you've made a loose indication that the tank has been running for weeks/months, which to me leaves it ambiguous whether the tank might have successfully completed a fish-in cycling process (some tanks complete this in around a month, some take several months.) At least we know its probably 3 weeks or more, so there's a good chance there are bacterial colonies working to some level. Are the paper tests showing zero ppm ammonia and zero ppm nitrite(NO2)? LFS test results can be tricky for a number of reasons: An inexperienced employee may not do them directly in your presence and may not perform them carefully or they may not have the same attitute about reporting exactly what the test result really is, or they may not actually know how to perform them properly. On the other hand there are plenty of experienced shops that will do a good job with them, it just depends. Its best if they show you the steps they perform, which is also a bit of a training session for you.

Tap water does not need to sit overnight in containers. Modern conditioners (which conditioner are you using?) will remove all of the chlorine or chloramine basically within seconds after it is swirled into the tap water of the transfer container or the aquarium if you are doing direct-fill. We normally recommend dosing at 1.5x to 2x what the instructions call for (but not more than 2x as beyond that the conditioner itself may slow N-Bac growth.) The large water changes outlined by OM47 are the crucial thing when you lack determined numerical feedback. Ten percent changes would not be significant in helping a fish-in situation if it existed.

The tank is overstocked I believe but probably not terribly so, so the members will probably be able to help you in that area. The neons normally need to have a tank that has matured 6 months to drop their risks a lot, but that's a hit or miss thing and you're past it anyway. Good luck and I hope your kit comes in soon.

~~waterdrop~~