Confirmation of my thoughts and research for my first tank.

[Sprizmo]

So I have managed to order the ammonia and that should be here tomorrow/Saturday so it looks like the water can go in Saturday for the leak test. Now need to sort out substrate and plants then good to go!

 

[GaryE]

I like this thread, because it's full of stuff I would like to have known when I started. Those of us who have enjoyed this hobby for a long time can develop an overview of what does and doesn't work.
I think we start by seeing fish as commodities, and hopefully we quickly realize they are living creatures with natural histories that go back to long before aquarium stores existed. When I had hard water, I thought I was really good keeping softwater tetras for 3-4 years. Now, with soft tapwater, if they don't make 7 I'm trying to see what's wrong. It's never one size fits all in nature, but soooo many hobbyists believe all fish adapt to all water. There's a myth that they adapt to radically different conditions than they spent tens of thousands of years in over the few years they've been farm bred. It's truer that we've accepted them living shorter lives because it's convenient to think that way.
A glowlight tetra comes from slightly harder water than a cardinal, and lives very differently than a piranha. Forget the all tetras are the same to keep bs. They aren't divided into species for nothing, and each one has to be learned and well treated for what it is.
It's like plants, too. I have a stone thumb. I know my limits. I research plants and only buy the easy ones. A lot of stores sell hard to get started cuttings, or land plants that survive temporary flooding (and so, die soon in tanks). The best work around is to take a look before you go to the store, make a list of what you think you can handle, and then go hunting.
I always try to look up where in the world a fish comes from. Then I check a map. Coastal? Chances are it'll like harder water, so if I have that from the tap, I look up more on the fish.
In time, you'll learn to adjust water to the fish. It's easy if you start with softwater, and really difficult and more expensive if you start with hard. But forget that when you're starting - pick fish that will thrive in what's easiest for you.

 

[Sprizmo]

I like this thread, because it's full of stuff I would like to have known when I started. Those of us who have enjoyed this hobby for a long time can develop an overview of what does and doesn't work.
I think we start by seeing fish as commodities, and hopefully we quickly realize they are living creatures with natural histories that go back to long before aquarium stores existed. When I had hard water, I thought I was really good keeping softwater tetras for 3-4 years. Now, with soft tapwater, if they don't make 7 I'm trying to see what's wrong. It's never one size fits all in nature, but soooo many hobbyists believe all fish adapt to all water. There's a myth that they adapt to radically different conditions than they spent tens of thousands of years in over the few years they've been farm bred. It's truer that we've accepted them living shorter lives because it's convenient to think that way.
A glowlight tetra comes from slightly harder water than a cardinal, and lives very differently than a piranha. Forget the all tetras are the same to keep bs. They aren't divided into species for nothing, and each one has to be learned and well treated for what it is.
It's like plants, too. I have a stone thumb. I know my limits. I research plants and only buy the easy ones. A lot of stores sell hard to get started cuttings, or land plants that survive temporary flooding (and so, die soon in tanks). The best work around is to take a look before you go to the store, make a list of what you think you can handle, and then go hunting.
I always try to look up where in the world a fish comes from. Then I check a map. Coastal? Chances are it'll like harder water, so if I have that from the tap, I look up more on the fish.
In time, you'll learn to adjust water to the fish. It's easy if you start with softwater, and really difficult and more expensive if you start with hard. But forget that when you're starting - pick fish that will thrive in what's easiest for you.

Yeah I like to know more than I need to know before I start anything so happy I have learnt so much already which is great and down to the people on this forum.

 

[Essjay]

So I have managed to order the ammonia and that should be here tomorrow/Saturday so it looks like the water can go in Saturday for the leak test. Now need to sort out substrate and plants then good to go!

If you are planting the tank, as long as there are lots of fast growing plants, you don't need to add ammonia. Plants take up ammonia faster than bacteria and they don't turn it into nitrite. If there are enough plants, they will remove all the ammonia made by a sensibly stocked tank.

However, if you plan just a few slow growing plants it is better to do a fishless cycle with ammonia then plant the tank after it is complete. Because plants take up ammonia, the cycle won't progress according to the method on here if they are planted during the cycle.

 

[Sprizmo]

If you are planting the tank, as long as there are lots of fast growing plants, you don't need to add ammonia. Plants take up ammonia faster than bacteria and they don't turn it into nitrite. If there are enough plants, they will remove all the ammonia made by a sensibly stocked tank.

However, if you plan just a few slow growing plants it is better to do a fishless cycle with ammonia then plant the tank after it is complete. Because plants take up ammonia, the cycle won't progress according to the method on here if they are planted during the cycle.

Ah okay.
Literally ordered the plants etc. about 20 minutes ago from Horizon Aquatics with the substrate and gravel. So if I put in the substrate, gravel, plants etc. when it arrives then I don't need to add the ammonia? Just let the tank grow for a couple of weeks? What will the ammonia source be? Or use quick start to get the bacteria in and then monitor the levels?

 

[Essjay]

How many plants and what species?

If there are fast growing plants only a very few bacteria will grow because the plants will do all the work. Even if you add ammonia, the plants will use it all and bacteria still won't grow in any numbers. Bacteria will only grow if there are no plants, or just one or two live plants.
But they do need to be fast growers, a couple of anubias, for example, won't be enough.




I live about half an hour from Horizon Aquatics and went there for the first time a few weeks ago. Wow, what a shop! Not many fish but the plants, wood, rocks etc and the area with display tanks set up by expert aquascapers! Even my husband was impressed

 

[Sprizmo]

To get it all started:
1 x Rotala Rotundifolia
1 x Microsorum Pteropus (java fern)
2 x Taxiphyllum Barbieri (java moss)

They were mainly slow I believe so should I cancel the order? Edit: Never mind they have already shipped it, talk about good service!!

 

[Essjay]

The Java fern and moss are indeed slow growing. And they won't be enough for a 125 litre tank full of fish.

The fern and moss will need to be attached to decor of some sort, so they could be kept quite happily on some decor in another container during cycling (eg bucket with a light shining into it for a few hours a day). But the rotala is a stem plant which does need planting.

Unless you intend more plants soon, I would plant the rotala and do a fishless cycle with ammonia. But keep an eye on the rotala as I am led to believe that some plants don't cope well with 3 ppm ammonia being added all at once rather than in tiny amounts 24 hours a day as when there are fish in the tank.
If you intend more plants I would wait until after the cycle has finished, then get them before fish so the planting process doesn't upset any fish.

 

[DaveInBracknell]

Hi,
This is a really good thread, I am interested in the comment on the plants. I hope I am not hijacking I have some related comments, I can start a new thread if needed.

Firstly I would say for your chemicals this company is excellent I use them for my hot tub (Sodium Bromide) and got 10% Ammonia from there easily, great delivery service and quick:

APC Pure

Simplicity for Science

apcpure.com

I have a 168 Fluval tank from maidenhead aquatics:
https://fluvalaquatics.com/uk/product/shaker-aquarium-kit-44-us-gal-168-l-hampshire-oak/ as it is both an aquarium and a feature.

Regarding the plants I planted the following (2 weeks in they are growing like mad) I purchased from https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/ (again good service)

I did the research on the forum (fast/medium growing plants)

Vallisneria spiralis
Limnophila aquatica
Eleocharis vivipara
Brazillian pennywort
Ludwigia Repens Rubin
Cardamine lyrata
Cryptocoryne wendtii
Hygrophilia polysperma
Limnophila sessiflora

I am at Day 13 of the cycle, I put in 1ppm Ammonia 3 days ago. Ammonia is now zero and my Nitrite is showing 1ppm (It was 5ppm 2 days ago). I have the dreaded brown silicate algae just starting (light is on around 12hrs a day at 50%).

Question: Its obvious the plants affect the cycle taking in the ammonia, but do we know how much?

I was going to put in the following when its cycles (I used a fish calculator ) and add slowly. (2-3 weeks away I think) but I think I'll have to pass on the tetras because I live in hard water area (CA 110mg/l).

Rasbora Danio 6
Harlequin Danio 6
Cory Catfish 3
Neon Tetra 8
Nerite Snails 2

I already have the danio's in a smaller tank so I'll transfer those across. Final question any ideas on the tetras swaps? I want to get a nice colony of fish going for the movement and display. I got three cory's as I read leaving them on their own is not good for them.

Thanks
Dave

 

[Sprizmo]

That seems like the best option.
With the Java bits to go in the bucket, do I just need rocks from a aquatics store? Then gorilla super glue them to the rock and put them in a bucket with some water covering all the plant or just enough to cover the rock? Do I put cling film over the top to stop any debris or just leave it open to air?
Sorry for all the questions but I don’t want to waste them if I can save them.

 

[Essjay]

CA 110mg/l

Is that 110 mg/l calcium? If that is what you mean, it converts to 15 dH and 275 ppm which, as you say, is hard water. I'm afraid it's too hard for all the fish on your list, not just the neons.
But if you mean circa 110 mg/l and the unit in full is mg/l calcium chloride, that's soft water.

If you clear up what exactly "CA 110" means we'll be able to advise better.

If it does turn out you have soft water, harlequins do better with at least 10, cories need at least 6, with more being better, neons would also do better in a bigger group, and I don't know what 'rasbora danios' are.



With all those plants in the tank you don't need to add any ammonia. All you need are actively growing plants, then you can start adding fish a few at a time. Adding ammonia will have negligible effect on bacteria as the plants will remove it before they can grow.
Whenever you add new fish, it is sensible to check ammonia and nitrite for several days after every addition to make sure they remain at zero - whichever cycling method is used.

 

[ClownLurch]

Dave in Bracknell I’m almost certain will have very hard water. It’s not far from me and it’s all chalk streams etc around these parts. We actually prise our water from the tap with a chisel.

Regarding the OP ive a list of very hard water fish (smallish, more to the tank!) that I cobbled together when I returned to the hobby nigh on two years back. I’ll list em in a couple of hours time.

 

[DaveInBracknell]

Hi,
Here's a snip from the South Eastern Water company. First column max, second column mean, third column min. Clown Lurch is right the calcium is horrendous around here.

What are the options? I get some water in (expensive?)

Thanks for the great reply.
Dave

 

[Essjay]

I should have looked on a map to see where Bracknell is

That table is the water quality report and the calcium level quoted in there is the measure of calcium. Hardness is the measure of all the divalent metals in the water - mainly calcium, some magnesium and trace amounts of other metals. But hardness is expressed as though it was all calcium. So hardness is always higher than the calcium level in the water quality report.
I've looked up details using the postcode of a company in Bracknell and see South East Water no longer give hardness in numbers. There is a banner on their homepage "welcome to our brand new website" so it looks as though they've removed it. But they do say "hard" which is water company speak for the band 200 to 300 ppm and 11.2 to 16.8 dH. These are the units used in fish profiles.

Of the fish in your list:
Rasbora Danio
Harlequin Danio
Do you mean zebra danios and harlequin rasboras?
Zebra danio - max hardness 357 ppm/20 dH, so they'd be OK.
Harlequin rasbora - max hardness 215ppm/12 dH but your hardness could ne higher than this. Even if it's a the lower edge of the band it's right at the top of the fish's range and it's better to keep them near the middle of their range.

Cory Catfish - some species are OK up to 215ppm but most need it lower
Neon Tetra - also need lower than 215 ppm


You need to look at hard water fish, ClownLurch also has hard water so hopefully he'll post his list of hard water fish.
I would work on the assumption that your hardness is around 250 ppm/14 dH, and look up the fish profiles on https://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ to check the hardness they need.

 

[Wills]

Hi,
Here's a snip from the South Eastern Water company. First column max, second column mean, third column min. Clown Lurch is right the calcium is horrendous around here.
View attachment 151194

What are the options? I get some water in (expensive?)

Thanks for the great reply.
Dave

Hi Dave, if its really hard water as suggested dont dispair There are plenty of great species to get in your tank, Galaxy Rasbora, Emerald Rasbora, Rummy Nose Rasbora, small Synodontis species like Lucipinis and Polli and smaller Rainbowfish like Dwarf Neons, Kamaka and some of the Forktail species, Amano Shrimp do great and so do some of the fancy snail species like Rabbits and Cappuccino. Livebearers like Swordtails, Platies, Guppies would all do great as would some of the rarer species like Limia and Skiffia. Some of the smallest Central American Cichlids like Nanoluteus or Cutteri would work in here too but you'd need to go with the bigger of the species I mentioned. Again with the bigger species Golden Wonder Killi would be a good option too.

An other option would be to have a lake tanganyika tank, primarily around shell dwelling species but with the height of the tank you could do some cool rockwork to make homes for some of the smaller rock dwelling species too and with such hard water you wouldnt need to do anything different. Let us know if this is something that interests you and I can show you some of the species I'd suggest.

Wills