Comment On The New Newsletter

Absolutely. There are a lot of myths in the hobby (like tonic salt is required for community fish) as well as poorly-understood scientific concepts (like salt is bad for catfish because they have no scales). These are thrown about as if they are gospel.

One of the things that amazes me is that so much is learned when people try things out themselves. For example, the only people who have spawned monos are the ones who've kept them in freshwater, not brackish or marine. I'm not saying people should go around ignoring good advice, but to people should be presented with the best practise and the science, and then left to intelligently try things out if they want.

Cheers,

Neale

On this topic in particular (see my old thread), I really dislike the people that said "Well, it scares the beginners into doing the right things, so it is perfectly ok."
 
I think it's way better to have accurate articles than ones which give the conclusion you want. Just because someone is new to fishkeeping, it doesn't mean that they are new to science or that they are unintelligent.
On the newsletter as a whole, I thought it was good, but a lot of the articles were aimed at newbies. How about aiming for a balance between articles aimed at more advanced fishkeepers, too?
 
I really didn't want to put up another post, but I just had another thought as to why the-ends-justify-the-means people really annoy me. It treats fishkeeping like it is some sort of elite club, where once you memorize the secret words you can becomes part of. Repeat after me "one inch per gallon", "stunting causes your fishs' organ to swell up and kill the fish", "ich is present in all water."

And what do you get when you force memorization? You get a bunch of people who can repeat on command exactly what they were told, but when a situation comes up that is even every-so-slightly different than the memorized one: deer in the headlights look. They have no independent reasoning ability to figure out new and unique situations. How many of us memorized like 50 important dates for history class because we knew that it would be asked on the exam, but if asked now we have no idea why those dates were important?

Someone may disagree with me here, but it is my opinion that an exceptionally large amount of science that goes into home aquarium fishkeeping is pretty easy. It can certainly get more difficult if you make it. For example, the home aquarist only needs know that bacteria will show up and consume ammonia and so on... the home aquarist does not need to know the entire DNA profile of that bacteria. There are people who do want/need to know the DNA profile, but that is for very different goals. For example #2, the home aquarist only needs to know the life-cycle of ich and how it is vulnerable only for a small percentage of its life. They do need to know what medicine is safe for the fish yet effective. They do not need to know ich's DNA profile, either, or electron microscope pictures of ich, or the names of all the subspecies or strains. For example #3, the home aquarist does not need to know the governing equations of fluid mechanics and turbulence to know if their filter pump is working or not. Or to learn that air bubbles would add just a tiny percentage of the total oxygen in the water.

All of these concepts are easy to explain, so that the reasons given are known along with the fact. There are no rites that you have to memorize in order to be part of the fish-keeping club.

Really, to be among the best fishkeepers, you only have to use a little bit of your brain. Know the reason why it has been done the way it had been done for the last 80 or whatever years, and learn to be just a tiny bit skeptical whenever someone comes along with the latest and greatest cure/machine to make your fishkeeping 25% easier! (as the ad might say). Heck, that's good advice for all of life, not just fishkeeping.
 
...But OohFeeshy articulated what I meant to say: "it is probably better for people who don't know any better ... "

Thank you for that OohFeeshy.

I have to disagree strongly with that statement. IMHO, it's when some people assume that what they believe is best for others be the only thing written, or made into law, that trouble starts. Freedom of speech, people who keep an open mind, and the education of everyone who wants to learn, is the basis of a successful society, as well as the things that do the most to advance science.

And the purpose of a forum is to provide an opportunity for all members to talk and to listen, not to be dictated to by anyone else. An interesting thing to notice here is that the most knowledgeable and educated members seem to be the most willing to help newbies by explaining basic principles and answering their questions, rather than by quoting some silly rule-of-thumb that may or may not have any basis in reality. They also seem to be the least likely to flame anyone for doing what they consider the wrong thing.


Amen to that! And although ooh feeshies comment was likely well meaning I agree wholeheartedly that it is best to not lie to someone just to keep them from making a mistake, lest they should catch us in that lie and our forum lose its credibility with yet another member

SLC
 
Just have to say I wholeheartedly agree with Bignose. My biggest problem with this forum is too many people have learned something as a mantra and cannot accept any other possibility, even when science is used to prove what they believe incorrect. They refuse to accept anything different, and rather than educate them as better fishkeepers, we have just created unthinking zealots.

A prime example is the rinsing of mechanical media under tap water. If the media is purely for mechanical filtration then it doesn't mater if the tap water kills any bacteria on it, the main colony is in the biological media section, yet some will still quote without thinking that ALL media must always be cleaned in tank water.
 
So let's have a Newsletter article on "top ten myths". I'm happy to get the ball rolling with "Fish need tonic salt added to their aquarium".

Cheers,

Neale
 
So let's have a Newsletter article on "top ten myths". I'm happy to get the ball rolling with "Fish need tonic salt added to their aquarium".

Cheers,

Neale
well the plan was one a month with a in depth investigation into each
 
I'm all for freedom of speech, and intelligent debates, and people learning from their own mistakes.

But I don't think I'm being understood here. In my original post, what I was asking for was more of a warning than "So since the organs don't keep growing, it's probably alright to stunt fish, isn't it? No, not in the least."

I'm not asking for a big, huge, eye-popping "DO NOT DO THIS". I just wanted a little bit of a stronger warning to be more prominent. Also, one thing that would have been helpful (since this was aimed at beginner level aquarists), was pushing the fact that people should be researching their fish before they put it into a tank that's too small for them. If they did this, as is recommended, people would learn that the fish is too big for their tank BEFORE the fish gets stunted.

My point is: "You wouldn't raise a baby in a 2 foot by 2 foot box, would you? So why would you consider doing it to your fish?" And beginners (or anyone who doesn't know any better for that matter) need to hear that message clearly. This isn't a matter of experimenting to find out the correct or incorrect way to do something. There is no maybe about it. There is no proper way to learn that stunting causing damage is a fact. Back to my baby example, you wouldn't keep it in a 2x2 box until it's 5 years old, only to realize that you're causing damage, and you should take it out. It's very simple: STUNTING FISH DAMAGES THEM. If you are willing to test this theory, you're the person that wouldn't be listening to my previously requested warning anyway. Myself? I spend enough money on my tank, my fish, my various supplies, etc. without having to kill one to no good end, and for no reason other than not doing my research.

I hope I made myself clear this time. This wasn't meant to be a debate on people's intelligence levels, their ability to learn, their right to say what they want, or anything like this. I only wanted a stronger warning for the people that do not know any better, and come to us for pointers and advice.
 
well i think the way it was done works he saidits not acceptable and then explained why if that aint warning enough well the there is very little that is
 
I think the point the OP is trying to make is, although not scientifically true or proven, it is probably better for people who don't know any better (after all, only those who have looked into the effects of stunting will realise it's probably untrue) to think that by stunting something 'really bad' is going to happen as opposed to just 'bad'.

Note, I didn't nessecarily say I agreed with that statement :p Because how many people had actually heard that before joining the forum and talking to other people? Shops, certainly, are unlikely to tell you that, and unless you're a member of an aquarists society, contact between fishkeepers is uncommon.
 
nevermind.. was gonna ask how i subscribe to the newsletter then i saw the large banner at the top.. DUUH ME

and yes beverages can be hot.. especially mcdonalds hot chocolate.. believe me.
 
I think the problem is that the word "damages" isn't particularly precise as a term, and means different things to different people. Compare the psychological damage people say their kids get from some racy River Island featuring scatily clad models advertising with the actual damage that kid would get from being hit by a bus.

The scientific evidence that stunting a fish causes physical harm is non-existent. There isn't any evidence at all that the internal organs carry on growing. Many (probably most) species of fish simply don't stunt at all (plecs, giant gouramis, and oscars, for example, all famously get big regardless of the size of the aquarium).

But, if you're saying fish shouldn't be kept in tanks too small, then that's rock-solid good science. Fish need space for exercise, to stimulate behaviours such as exploration and territoriality, and to provide the physical volume to dilute metabolic wastes and buffer chemical changes. Whether denying those things by keeping a plec in a 20 gallon tank is "damaging" is a question of semantics, but it is certainly dangerous and cruel to keep said plec in said tank.

So going to your example of a human baby, the question isn't about physically stunting its growth (which wouldn't happen), but rather that a baby trapped in a small box wouldn't be able to exercise (and so develop muscle strength), explore its environment (and so learn motor skills), or interact with other babies (and so learn communication skills).

In my opinion, what aquarists need to focus on is a more holistic approach to the life of the fish than focusing on just one danger, stunting. They need to think about what the fish does and how it responds to its environment. One reason I like community tanks is that fish interact with one another. Even across different species you see things like one species guarding its territory against another, or one fish stealing food from another fish, and so on. This interaction exercises the fish and prevents boredom. Hand-training fish is good, too, as it encourages the fishes to interact with us, and to take an interest in things outside the tank.

Cheers,

Neale

My point is: "You wouldn't raise a baby in a 2 foot by 2 foot box, would you? So why would you consider doing it to your fish?" And beginners (or anyone who doesn't know any better for that matter) need to hear that message clearly. This isn't a matter of experimenting to find out the correct or incorrect way to do something. There is no maybe about it. There is no proper way to learn that stunting causing damage is a fact. Back to my baby example, you wouldn't keep it in a 2x2 box until it's 5 years old, only to realize that you're causing damage, and you should take it out. It's very simple: STUNTING FISH DAMAGES THEM. If you are willing to test this theory, you're the person that wouldn't be listening to my previously requested warning anyway. Myself? I spend enough money on my tank, my fish, my various supplies, etc. without having to kill one to no good end, and for no reason other than not doing my research.
 
The thing is though, when does reasearch end and unnessecary cruelty begin? It would be easier on everyone looking into the subject to do experiments looking at variables such as tank size (for obvious reasons) and water change frequency (to examine the hormone theory). But who would support doing that when it causes unnessecary suffering?
 
The work has been done in aquaculture. There's a whole literature on things like stocking density, water changes, and so on and how they effect the growth rate of fishes and their sensitivity to disease. Fish farms want to the most fish in the smallest volume with the least wastage of water and the fewest sick fish. Problem is, most aquarists don't read the fish farming literature (myself included). But it's certainly out there if you want to wade through it.

Cheers,

Neale

But who would support doing that when it causes unnessecary suffering?
 
Perhaps, but that has more of an industrial perspective. Usually, large food fish like salmon are involved- not fish commonly kept stunted in the ornamental fish trade such as goldfish. And conditions used rarely resemble the home aquarium.
 

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