Characodon Audax

[jonnyf84]

OK i may have the chance to get some of these in the not to distant future,



just wondering if anyone has any experience with them and can pass on some tips. Also, i was thinking of housing them with my X. Nezahualcoyotl but i'm slightly worried that they may cross breed - could this happen? As if i manage to get a pure strain i really dont want to run the risk of hybridising them.

Oh also, i read that these are one of the most ancient livebearers on the planet, does anybody have any idea roughly when they originated or even more interestingly what they evolved from?

 

[nmonks]

Characodon is a goodeid, isn't it? Can't imagine there's much risk of crossing with Xiphophorus. Their "dangly bits" are quite different, if nothing else!

As for the most ancient livebearers, I'd have thought that dubious; coelacanths are livebearers, as are sharks, and both groups are far older than the cyprinodontiformes.

That said, the origin of the cyprinodontiformes is obscure, but it is believed that they're originally a marine group. Numerous killifish remain marine fish, at least in part. The cyprinodontiformes are supposedly related to the atheriniformes, which are things like smelts (marine) and rainbowfish (freshwater). The argument for this comes from genetics as well as physical characteristics, both groups having an odd mix of primitive and advances bony fish traits. At least one phylogeny I've seen puts the goodeids and fundulids (mostly North American killis) on one branch, and the poecilids, cyprinodontids, and anablepids on another branch, with both branches being more closely related to each other than the European killis, Asian killis (aplocheilids) and rivulids. In other words, the group we call "livebearers" is actually two distinct lineages of former-killifish that independently became livebearing.

Cheers, Neale

 

[pippoodle]

i cant remember ever seeing that goodeids and swords do cross but dont quote me on it

read lots of stuff so i wouldn't end up keeping fish that could hybridise in the same tanks --- doing that is a complete disaster to the fish species IMO
especially if they get passed on and other people and then someone buys them as something they are not

hope it makes sense - makes sense to me lol MS head not good today

 

[jonnyf84]

i know exactly what your saying pippoodle and i couldn't agree more, thats why i want to make sure. One of my male nezzies is a horny little bugger i swear last week it looks like he was trying his luck with a rummy nose he was flashing and kept trying to edge in on the Rummys side fighting a lost cause there i reckon!!



Thanks neale, it might take me a hour or so to fully grasp and de-sipher your abundant knowledge How much should i be looking to pay for these fish? And how rare would you consider them to be?

 

[fish48]

Goodeids can’t cross breed with Xiphophorus

 

[jonnyf84]

Goodeids can’t cross breed with Xiphophorus

well thats that cleared up, thankyou. Fish48 are you based in the north? I have a inkling that Ian was talking about you regarding the Auction in mid May? Or am i off the mark.

How much should i be looking to pay for these fish? And how rare would you consider them to be?

 

[nmonks]

Wasn't trying to confuse you! Rather, make the point that the Characodon and the Xiphophorus are from completely different families, so the chances of them cross-breeding are about the same as a cat and a dog cross breeding.

Price of course depends on how much you want them! I really don't have any idea what the going rate is for Characodon. Goodeids generally go for around £3-5 retail, probably less via auction or a fish club.

Cheers, Neale

PS. Funnily enough, one of my young male Limia nigrofasciata was desperately trying to mate with a female Hemirhamphodon halfbeak this morning. Talk about barking up the wrong tree. Funny thing was, she didn't seem too bothered. The male halfbeak hardly seems to show interest in her beyond occasional gill flaring, so perhaps she wanted a bit of company?

Thanks neale, it might take me a hour or so to fully grasp and de-sipher your abundant knowledge How much should i be looking to pay for these fish? And how rare would you consider them to be?

 

[jonnyf84]

No not at all, i like posts like that, once i've researched all that was said i have a much better understanding of things and that can only be good.

PS. Funnily enough, one of my young male Limia nigrofasciata was desperately trying to mate with a female Hemirhamphodon halfbeak this morning. Talk about barking up the wrong tree. Funny thing was, she didn't seem too bothered. The male halfbeak hardly seems to show interest in her beyond occasional gill flaring, so perhaps she wanted a bit of company?

Haha, imagine the outcome if it were possible Oh you've got to love there spirit when they do things like that, fish behaviour is a amazing thing.

 

[pippoodle]

i know what you mean about Limia nigrofasciata i think they are worse than male guppys , they even try the butt bumping with my glass cats and corys -- imagine their shock if anything happened lol

 

[fish48]

Goodeids can’t cross breed with Xiphophorus

well thats that cleared up, thankyou. Fish48 are you based in the north? I have a inkling that Ian was talking about you regarding the Auction in mid May? Or am i off the mark.

How much should i be looking to pay for these fish? And how rare would you consider them to be?

Hi jonnyf84
I am going to a auction in may
at the moment I don’t have any spare I will let you know when available If you find them in a pet shop £5-£10 pear. can pay up to £20 in a auction
This is not a easy fish keep. let me know if you need more info on this fish

 

[jonnyf84]

Hi jonnyf84
I am going to a auction in may
at the moment I don’t have any spare I will let you know when available If you find them in a pet shop £5-£10 pear. can pay up to £20 in a auction
This is not a easy fish keep. let me know if you need more info on this fish

I wouldn't like to buy then from a retailer as i wouldn't know for sure they aren't hybrids. I am going to the auction anyway but ian got my hopes up when he said there might be some red/black princes and i figured they might be coming from you. Is it the bradford auction? If so would it be possible to pm me a list of fish you will be taking so i can get some research done.

Why do you say they are not easy to keep? Male aggression?

 

[dunchp]

Hey Jonny,

They are not too easy, but they are a lovely fish.

They are quite aggressive and you will have to keep them away from corys and the like, they may be OK with swords as they are quite fast moving but I wouldn't be 100% sure.

As for the heritage of the fish, I can't do better than the attached link to a paper by Juan Miguel Artigas Aziz who is a Mexican ichthyologist.

http/www.goodeids.com/modules.php?name=N...rint&sid=65

They are quite rare and they come and go in the hobby, but they are always sought after. They would do best with cooler water.

I wouldn't worry too much about hybrids, as there are limited fish they can hybridise with and anyone who can breed them would already know about them.

Another good fish to try would be Characodon lateralis.

 

[fish48]

Hi jonnyf84
I am going to a auction in may
at the moment I don’t have any spare I will let you know when available If you find them in a pet shop £5-£10 pear. can pay up to £20 in a auction
This is not a easy fish keep. let me know if you need more info on this fish

I wouldn't like to buy then from a retailer as i wouldn't know for sure they aren't hybrids. I am going to the auction anyway but ian got my hopes up when he said there might be some red/black princes and i figured they might be coming from you. Is it the bradford auction? If so would it be possible to pm me a list of fish you will be taking so i can get some research done.

Why do you say they are not easy to keep? Male aggression?

Males can be very aggressive to words females and can often kill them adults will attack and kill or eat there fry. And can be very sensitive to sudden changes to there environment also same for the reds



My list of goodeids

Allodontichthys polepis
Allodontichthys tamazulae kees de jong 2002
Allodontichthys tamazulae *
Allodontichthys zonistus jalisco mexico
Alloophorus robustus lago de patzcuaro, michoacan, mexico
Allotoca zacapuensis Lake Zacapu 2000

Ameca splendens rio teuchitlan lambert collection 1996
Ataeniobius toweri rio verde, mexico *

Chapalichthys encaustus lago, de capala,
Chapalichthys encaustus albino form
Chapalichthys pardalis *

Characodon audax El toboso, Durango, mexico
Characodon lateralis los berros, Durango, mexico
Characodon lataralis sp. Guadalupe Aguilera mexico
Characodon lateralis los pinos, mexico

Girardinichthys multiradiatus maravatio, mexico
Girardinichthys viviparous D. lambert collection 1989

Goodea atripinnis lago patzcuaro
Goodea atripinnis marivito, mexico
Goodea atripinnis laguna opopeo
Goodea atripinnis *
Ilyodon ameca aquarium strain
Ilyodon Furcidens Ilyodon xantusi
Ilyodon whitei *
Ilyodon cortezi * Xenotaenia resolanae *
Xenophorus captivus aquarium strain

Xenotoca eiseni rio tamazula mexico
Xenotoca eiseni granja sahuaripa, mexico
Xenotoca eiseni golden saddle san marcos
Xenotoca variata #### MARIE, SAN LOUIS POTOSI, MEXICO
Xenotoca melanosoma *

 

[helterskelter]

Just backing the other up here.

• They will not cross with swords (Xiphophorus), but will cross with other Characodon species.
• Keep cool 60-74F (wamer for breeding but give 3-4 months a year of lower temps to rest)
• Can be very nippy i have only kept them in species tanks for this reason.

Which auction are u on about guessing it's Redditich but not checked the dats yet. I'll be there too

 

[jonnyf84]

thankyou for the list fish28. I was just looking through your images on photo bucket, is this X. Nigrensis?

No its the bradford auction on the 17th May.