Catch 22 Situ

[orandas]

Hi,

In the last 2 weeks, 2 of my fishes have strange markings on their skin, and given my enthusiasm for water changes i couldn't believe it was something to do with the water quality.

I only figured out this morning, that its excess slime coat, caused by PH swings from the tap(ph7.4) to the tank(ph8).

Its an upward swing of 0.6. i didn't realise the 0.6 was a big difference, nor that an upward swing is bad, but judgeing by their slime coating its bad.

I recently upgraded their tank shape, from a spacious tall tank with lower surface area, to, a long and shallow tank with tons of surface area.

They previous had a warmer and lower oxygen tank and now its a colder but lots of oxygen tank, and i added an extra filter.

Apparently the change affected the pH?!, and its manifesting in their excess slime coat.

Given that i also have 20-40ppm nitrate in the tap water, large water changes no longer seem a good idea. Oh the irony of it.

I've gone from bucket to hoses, but hoses seem pointless for incremental water changes. So am i back to buckets?!

Does anyone know about ph changes? There isn't anything in the tank that could affect the ph, i've checked.

So i shouldn't do large water changes because of the nitrate levels and the ph swings, but if i don't do large water changes, i don't remove the nitrate created by them, and not from the tap?! Catch-22?! forgot to add my my GH 200mg/l, KH 160mg/l

 

[This Old Spouse]

I'd invest in a nice piece of bogwood to bring down the pH naturally and permanently. It should drop it down to at least the level of the tap water.

 

[orandas]

I'd invest in a nice piece of bogwood to bring down the pH naturally and permanently. It should drop it down to at least the level of the tap water.

i really don't want to be messing with there ph. i keep reading i'm not suppose to mess with their ph.

How wud i gauge the size piece i need? Its a whole new area for me.Is there too much bogwood.

when you say it will drop it down to the tap level......its a gradual process? days? weeks? months? Its not gonna drag the tank water below the tap water...

Its not gonna rot? splinters etc

how long do they keep in the tank water?

 

[This Old Spouse]

The point of getting bogwood (or peat balls, etc.) is that it's a natural way to lower your pH, which is too high for most fish. You're not "messing with" the pH but slowly lowering it naturally, without the use of any chemicals that you'd have to keep adding.

Any bogwood will do. Just get a nice piece that flatters your aquarium layout. You may have to soak it for a time so it will sink, otherwise just weigh it down with a couple of nice rocks.

I'd say it will take a few days for the pH to level out.

Bogwood or driftwood should already be free of splinters, and unless you boil it, it shouldn't rot in your tank.

It'll keep in your tank as long as you want it.

 

[orandas]

The point of getting bogwood (or peat balls, etc.) is that it's a natural way to lower your pH, which is too high for most fish. You're not "messing with" the pH but slowly lowering it naturally, without the use of any chemicals that you'd have to keep adding.

Any bogwood will do. Just get a nice piece that flatters your aquarium layout. You may have to soak it for a time so it will sink, otherwise just weigh it down with a couple of nice rocks.

I'd say it will take a few days for the pH to level out.

Bogwood or driftwood should already be free of splinters, and unless you boil it, it shouldn't rot in your tank.

It'll keep in your tank as long as you want it.

A simple solution to the problem, just how i like it.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

It would be a gradual process as the bogwood releases tannins. It won't splinter on its own. It would only be an issue if it is already splintered. It will rot, but very, very slowly. it should take years (more like decades) before it is no longer good to keep in the tank.


You can keep the levels closer to the tap with this. Big bogwood is fine.


I don't even know that the pH swing is the issue so much as how QUICKLY it happens. I would continue to use the hose method, but try to just slowly trickle the water back into the tank. The issue isn't as big a deal as you are making it. Ultimately, fish can handle swings like this in pH... The bigger issue might be hardness. Is the hardness of the tank different from the tap? Do you have any coral (or similar) items that might be leaching into the water?


Either way, doing SLOWER water changes would be the way to go until the levels match more closely. Just as acclimating your fish slowly will allow it to change its water conditions, so too can a slow water change. Just take an hour or two to fill up the tank during a 50% water change (slow trickle compared to full power on the hose). This minor change will make a world of difference.

 

[orandas]

... The bigger issue might be hardness. Is the hardness of the tank different from the tap? Do you have any coral (or similar) items that might be leaching into the water?

It never occurred to me to measure the hardness of the tank water.Will need to test that. I just assumed it wud be the same as its source. But then the ph isn't the same as the source.Thanks for bringing it to my attention.Its all in the tiny details we overlook.

Definately no coral ornaments or the like leaching.

Okay will go slower on the tank refilling.We timed it took us 40mins to refill it @ 90%. OH is converted to the hose method now, what a relief.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

... The bigger issue might be hardness. Is the hardness of the tank different from the tap? Do you have any coral (or similar) items that might be leaching into the water?

It never occurred to me to measure the hardness of the tank water.Will need to test that. I just assumed it wud be the same as its source. But then the ph isn't the same as the source.Thanks for bringing it to my attention.Its all in the tiny details we overlook.

Definately no coral ornaments or the like leaching.

Okay will go slower on the tank refilling.We timed it took us 40mins to refill it @ 90%. OH is converted to the hose method now, what a relief.

For a 90% change, it should take closer to 2 hours, if you ask me. That is a considerable difference. Longer is better. You might be better off with less sizable, but more frequent changes for a little though, just to try to bring them more in line.

 

[orandas]

... The bigger issue might be hardness. Is the hardness of the tank different from the tap? Do you have any coral (or similar) items that might be leaching into the water?

It never occurred to me to measure the hardness of the tank water.Will need to test that. I just assumed it wud be the same as its source. But then the ph isn't the same as the source.Thanks for bringing it to my attention.Its all in the tiny details we overlook.

Definately no coral ornaments or the like leaching.

Okay will go slower on the tank refilling.We timed it took us 40mins to refill it @ 90%. OH is converted to the hose method now, what a relief.

You might be better off with less sizable, but more frequent changes for a little though, just to try to bring them more in line.

Agree.Tested hardness(KH/GH) in the tank is the same as the tap, just the ph is different.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Good, because hardness is a more important issue than pH to the fish, ultimately. They can adapt to pH swings, they just need a little time.


The excess slime coat might not be from the pH swings, but instead from being in water that is harder than they prefer. What fish are they? Are they acidic loving, soft water fish like tetras, or are they hard water loving livebearers or cichlids?


How long have you had these particular fish? Has your hardness always been this high?

 

[orandas]

Good, because hardness is a more important issue than pH to the fish, ultimately. They can adapt to pH swings, they just need a little time.


The excess slime coat might not be from the pH swings, but instead from being in water that is harder than they prefer. What fish are they? Are they acidic loving, soft water fish like tetras, or are they hard water loving livebearers or cichlids?


How long have you had these particular fish? Has your hardness always been this high?

Back from shops, got a 3 for 2 deal (2x mopani & 1 x driftwood), same price as for 1 online! - had 6 x rinse of warm water. leaving it to soak overnight.

They are orandas(fancy goldfish), and according to various sites;

#like water with a pH of 7 to 8 and moderate hardness.

#can tolerate a very wide pH range, but they prefer hard water with a mildly alkaline pH, around 7.2-7.6.

#pH should be over 7 (preferably over 7.4).

#pH : 6 - 7.5
Water Hardness : 5° to 20° dH,

#The goal is around 10-15žGH and pH 7.0-7.5.

#temp 20-24°C
pH 6.5-8.5
water hardness 6-16 dGH

#pH/KH: 7.5-8.3 (Optimal range)/ 120-300ppm

My tank is ph8, GH 200mg/l, KH 160mg/l , temp 19-20 degrees.
I've had them for 3 years. I think in my old tank & filter ph was 7.4(hazely recall),then lost filter(long story),moved fishes, then new tank & filter, and during fishless cycling ph was high thru out 8.2-8.4(purple colour api test kit), after cycling stayed at ph8.

I have been trying to figure out why the excessive slimecoat, and the only thing was the 0.6 upward ph swing. Over the summer,and after cyling, i removed the heaters, then summer to autumm weather change, and tank water down to 16 degrees, so replace heaters back to 19 degrees, then from bucket to hose method of water changes, then last week in the midst of waterchange, combi-boiler broke down(circuit board frazzled), freezing tap water,i didn't realise til after the water change, these are all the changes that i can think of.Today combi-boiler fixed, so hot tap water again.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Something tells me it was more related to the rapid drop in temp (freezing tap water) than the pH. Slower water changes always allow for acclimation to drops in any water parameter. The slower process would help with the temp drop as well. Ultimately, I think it might have been the combination of all the above things happening so quickly. I think as long as things remain fairly stable for them, that they will acclimate to this whole thing.