Cat Owner Turns To Dna To Implicate Dog

[juliehainsworth]

(Might not be a vegan or animal rights person etc...... but my dad is an anarchist/eco warrior type person so I have many different views and have tendency to argue my point SORRY I think I missed a phase when I was a teenager )

Actually animals do work look at the insects they have created theyre own society not much different to our own they have workers/royalty/even an army and they actually built they're own home unlike most of us today

Because I'm like most other people who enjoy watching them and having them! Why else do you think I'd have them

Exactly they don't need these things unlike us without them we would be nothing, why do you think there is so much poverty out there!

Hmmmm lets see now it is not that often that I watch tv and play on ps2 and psp etc...... There are other things in life that don't revolve around them........ Oh by the way living in Yorkshire and not coming from a wealthy family means I don't have a pool and I'd rather not have one thanks. And to put you straight I do actually walk to work (I know its shocking isnt it that a person would prefer to walk than cram oneself on a bus with other people or even use the car just to nip to the corner shop)

While what you say sounds good in theory...it would be very hard, as the humans we already are....to do those things on a wide scale basis. We do need to help preserve what we have left...but so many eco-nuts have gone about it the wrong way in the past...most people don't listen to what they say anymore.[/color]

Well I totally agree with you about the eco nuts....... But the people in remote villages without the electricity and mod cons that we have seem to be alot happier than us and respect they're surroundings!

Hey why not kill off a few more humans or actually let nature take its course and let people die that are dying instead of keeping them alive by expensive machines! I know for a fact that I wouldnt want to be hooked up to a machine for the rest of my life..... If I was dying I'd like to die in peace not be used as an experiment! And no its not natural selection if it was then we wouldnt be trying to cheat death all the time Sorry if this offends others)

Its just us playing god to use another animal for our needs/gain as we were in capable of being as efficient as the animal we got to use

I never said that we were smart to create the weapons! And I do believe that the animals are better than us

We created weapons to defend and feed ourselves. We don't have claws or long sharp teeth. That's why God gave us superior brains...so that we could figure out ways to help ourselves with "man-made" devices.

If our brains were so superior we wouldnt be in the mess we are in now, there wouldnt be so much poverty or discrimination! So your saying that nuclear weapons should be used to scare other countries into giving what they have to you! Hmmmm such superior thinking from that super brain........ Dead intelligent there Weapons arent used to defend anymore they are used to gain power and so called respect eg BUSH/BLAIR in IRAQ wise move yeah right POWER TRIP!!!!! Well if god gave us such superior brains how come we arent able to see past colour of a persons skin/religion/nationality etc....... He created us equal suposedly yet if that was the case how come ancient civilisations were lost due to invasions from others? Does it not say in the bible that you should respect one and other? If so how come we persecute each other over they're beliefs and practices??

Would watch discovery channel but don't have sky/cable sorry! Yes some animals do terrorise others but there is a natural pecking order and it keeps them all in a balance

But the cats kill animals smaller than them so why shouldnt they have a natural prediotor such as dogs?

That is true about papers not having they're facts and DNA testing being part of an autopsy but like I said it is possible that the dog could of examined the cat after it had died not saying it did or did not! My old dog once brought a dead rat out of the hedge but he didnt kill it. He did roll on it and play with it so if the rat had of been tested for DNA then my dogs dna would have been found on it (Just an example of what Could have happened)

Hey if you want to volunteer to be in a zoo be my guest! I certainly dont see the animals lining up saying oooh please I want to be stared at and kept in a confined space that is not my real habitat please lock me up! And some are in a zoo just look at the prisons! They're full of animals that need putting to sleep! Then again dont as prisoners here get more spent on them than the education department/health service tempting to commit a crime really to live the life of luxury! Might claim insanity and get all sorts!!!!

I personally don't have anything against Christians (having being christened myself) but I think the bible is hypocritical and contradictory just like all other religious books...... after all all the religions are entertwined whether you like it or not....... But this is not a religious argument so not getting into the God is this and god is that cos whats the point we cant prove he exists or not........ I think I'll stick with evolution its a much better way to look at it....... And I look forward...... to the next stage in the worlds life when humans have blown themselves up with NUKES and its only the animals that survived and come back from the ocean just as we all did before..........

 

[SRC]

Because I'm like most other people who enjoy watching them and having them! Why else do you think I'd have them.
When you do the very things you are trying to condem..that doesn’t validate your point, imho.

Exactly they don't need these things unlike us without them we would be nothing, why do you think there is so much poverty out there!
This sentence doesn't really make sense.

There is poverty out there, because alot of people refuse to get up off their lazy duff and go to work..they also refuse to comply with governments or accept their help, or follow direction.

Notice, I didn't say all people were smart..but God did give each of us the ability to use the brain we were given..he also gave us the ability to choose NOT to use it as well. Depends on the person on whether or not they choose to use it or not.

Hmmmm lets see now it is not that often that I watch TV and play on ps2 and psp etc......
Great for you...but most of the general population that we are discussing..does. You might not have a pool in your backyard, but does that mean you've never been to a public pool? I know I have not sure about there, but here we have huge public parks just for swimming and playing.

Well I totally agree with you about the eco nuts....... But the people in remote villages without the electricity and mod cons that we have seem to be alot happier than us and respect they're surroundings!
That's because they don't know anything different then that. Most people, unless uselessly selfish, are happy with what they have.

Hey why not kill off a few more humans or actually let nature take its course and let people die that are dying instead of keeping them alive by expensive machines! And no it’s not natural selection if it was then we wouldn’t be trying to cheat death all the time.
Um...hmm. So, what you are saying is...if YOUR mom did want to try and live on a machine..you think we should just forgo what she wants and pull the plug and let her die, when she might could be saved?

And natural selection isn't segregated to just dying of natural causes...it is dying from not trying to not die. An animal doesn't know how to save itself, thus it will die if injured in the wild...same as a human. We have just developed ways to not die at early ages..I don't think that is cheating death. If we were meant to die at a particular moment in time...we would.

If our brains were so superior we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now,
We are where we are now BECAUSE people are so smart. Just because they are smart, doesn't mean they use that intelligence to do good deeds...being smart helps corrupt people as well.

They've figured out how to use these things for their own devices. Animals overcome each other as well. Male horses steal mares from other stallions...it's just a different scenario with a different outcome...there is always a challenger and a loser.

He created us equal supposedly yet if that was the case how come ancient civilizations were lost due to invasions from others? Does it not say in the bible that you should respect one and other?
It may say that, but each of us were given a brains that allows each of us to have our own opinions, beliefs, and desires. Some people are greedy, selfish, arrogant, and mean. God did not create us all "equal" (otherwise we'd all look, act, and think alike). He gave us each the ability to be equal to each other, that doesn't mean everyone makes the effort towards it.

MLK said that we should all be treated as equals...which we should. No one human is better then another, in the sense of color. What makes one man greater then another is his accomplishments and how he treats/views his fellow man...it makes him a greater person, then say...someone who sits at home collecting government checks and never helps his fellow man.

But the cats kill animals smaller than them so why shouldn’t they have a natural predator such as dogs?
So, ok if Dogs are cats predators...what should be the dogs predator...mountain lions? So when a M.L. kills/eats your dog should you just say "eh...it's just the way it is" and do nothing about it?

My old dog once brought a dead rat out of the hedge but he didn’t kill it. He did roll on it and play with it so if the rat had of been tested for DNA then my dogs DNA would have been found on it (Just an example of what could have happened)
Yes, that is what an autopsy is for. Just because you can't tell..forenscic scientists can. They go to school for many years to learn to tell the difference between damages done to a dead subject ..and one that that has been killed while alive. I exactly can't explain to you how they figure it out (I haven't been to school for that) but they prove people innocent and they prove them guilty in court everyday based on those findings.

Otherwise they'd never be able to tell exactly what has happened to people that they find in teh woods, that were murdered years ago, who are decomposed and such...but they do, everyday.

Hey if you want to volunteer to be in a zoo be my guest! I certainly don’t see the animals lining up saying oooh please I want to be stared at and kept in a confined space that is not my real habitat please lock me up! And some are in a zoo just look at the prisons! They're full of animals that need putting to sleep! Then again don’t as prisoners here get more spent on them than the education department/health service tempting to commit a crime really to live the life of luxury! Might claim insanity and get all sorts!!!!
hmm..sorry, I'm not going to reply to that. As I'm trying to be logical and civil, not start an argument and get the thread closed.

I think I'll stick with evolution its a much better way to look at it.......
Well, it's hard to explain and/or understand where we all originally came from...it's just something you have to decide on and believe in. But, if you want to believe that you suddenly appeared out of thin air (or a big, loud explosion) or just happen to morph out of a blob of goo...lol that's your personal beliefs.

 

[rdd1952]

I think this thread got off on a tangent. Animal/mammal instincts can be debated forever. The point of pica_nuttalli original post was who's fault was it. As flips said in the first reply, if you have pets that you let run loose (or even confine to the yard via an invisible fence) and don't protect them, it's your fault if something happens to them and you have to be able to live with the consequences. I would love to put an invisible fence around our yard so we could let our dog (mixed poodle/shih tzu about 18 lb.) out to play more. But an invisible fence only keeps your pet in. It doesn't keep other animals out so your pet isn't safe from anything except itself.

When dogs kill a cat (or any other animal), it isn't a pretty thing. I remember seeing 3 dogs kill a kitten when I was about 10 or 12 years old (I'm 53 now) and I still remember how savage it was and there wasn't anything we could do at the time. As someone mentioned, they slung it like they were playing with a toy. It would slip from their mouths and they'd just grab it again. These weren't bad dogs. They weren't vicious at all. They were pets of several of the kids in the neighborhood and we played with them every day. As the old saying goes, boys will be boys. The same applies to animals, animals will be animals. It's a sad story but the cat owner has to accept the blame.

 

[juliehainsworth]

Ok so lets just agree to disagree then! Like we both agree we all have our own thoughts! I'll accept you do make some good points but I don't agree with them all!

And about the ML killing my dog (which wont happen as there are no ML in England that I know of?), no I wouldnt persecute the ML for doing it....... The only thing that I would persecute is if a human killed my dog either by running it over or by other means inc if they had a dog that was viscious and they were accompaning the dog and just let it attack the dog then it is different as there is a means of control (There are some owners that do let they're animals attack others whilst in a park)

And I'm envious of you actually having recreation parks wish we had more of them near us all most outdoor pools have been closed down by the councils!

I don't see cat owners (sorry if this offends) putting they're cat to sleep or keeping it confined to the house because it killed a mouse/bird etc..........

And yes I have witnessed dogs killing I had a Jack russell and was out for a walk with my neighbour and his three german sheps in the woods and the dogs worked as a pack to kill a squirell! And no it wasnt a pretty sight but it was in they're natural instinct to do it! Just like it is in my neighbours cats to catch and kill birds...... Some of which she tries to save but it isnt always possible!

We cannot conclude that an autopsy was performed as it does just state that she had a DNA test done, it does not say what the control media is etc so all we have to go on is the DNA evidence which can be flawed! Yes I know the law uses it to put people away, but it is not always 100% accurate and some innocent people get put away for doing crimes they did not commit! Also they don't know what exactly happened when to the bodies they found dead in woods they just come up with a probable scenario! Nobody will ever know what exactly happened.

I still think that the dog might not have killed the cat! But that is my opinion!

 

[littleimp]

I can confirm without a shadow of a doubt that my own personal german sheperds detest cats. We have 2 german sheperds and they both hate cats, if theirs a cat in our garden & the dogs see it all hell lets loose & I have to admit that one of our dogs got hold of one of our neighbours cats by the head & shook it aound like a ragdoll. It's still alive albeit a bit disabled though.

cats eat mice
dogs eat cats

It's natural instinct and I believe most larger dogs it would be difficult to remove. Remove their basic instinct & you would proabaly remove a GSD guarding instinct too. GSD are extremely protective, that's why they are used by the police & military.

 

[juliehainsworth]

Not sure if mine would actually dare attack my neighbours cats but he does chase them! Then again they do torment him and have quite often given him a smack for sticking his head through a hole in the fence! Then again the cats used to torment my old dog too........ but my dogs (touch wood) have never attacked a cat!

I suppose its all part of the circle of life as Disney kindly put it in Lion king! (cant think of any example)

But just thought what the top living thing is and thats bacteria as they destroy all dead things and turn them into the useful chemicals around us today lol (ok too much brain activity going on so better rest it now dont want to over tire myself now do I )
Like that will ever happen

 

[SRC]

I can confirm without a shadow of a doubt that german sheperds detest cats.

Statements like this are what give each large breed dog their bad names.

You cannot confirm that GSD detest cats, what you can confirm is that YOUR GSD's detest cats.

I have had several GSD that didn't give a cat a second look, I had 3 dobermans (now I have 2 ) and 2 were fine with cats, the 3rd one hates them....that doesn't mean all Dobies hate or like cats.

That's like saying "I can confirm that Rotweillers detest children, my neighbor has 3 and they chase any that they see, and even attacked and mauled the neighbors own 2 yr old."

Please don't generalize breeds based on what your particular animals might be doing. And especially don't go around saying things like that...large breed dogs get enough of a bad rap as it is...they don't need any more help.

*****************
I'm going to say this...and then I'll stop..because this is about the dumbest thing I've ever debated about..especially some of the comments that have been made...

Why chastize a person for running over your dog, and not the neighbor for letting his dog run loose and kill your cat?

That doesn't make sense.

*edit* Let me re-phrase....

Why would it be ok to chastize/hold responsible a person for running over a dog, when according to what has been said, it's the dog owner's responsibility to keep the dog contained?

When you just said it's a cat owner's fault, not the dog owning neighbor, when a cat is killed by the neighbors dog; because the cat owner let the cat roam around outside (or escape, doesn't matter how it got out).

Fair game is fair game. Tit for tat. You can't stand on both sides of the fence. Either the person who killed/hurt an animal is at fault or they aren't.

Personally...I think if my (or anyone elses) animal goes into someone elses yard and hurts/kills someone elses property..the owner of the destructive party should be held responsible for those actions (same as with children until they are 18), regardless of whether it was an accident or not.

 

[juliehainsworth]

A dog on the street without its owner cannot be condemned for its actions its following its instinct! If the owner willingly let the dog roam the streets then it is a slightly different kettle of fish! But if the dog is to be condmened then so should the cat for killing! Just because the mice and birds werent someones pet doesnt mean that the cat shouldnt also have been given the same sentence as to what the cats owner is trying to impose on the dog! And the cat should have been kept in at all times and muzzled as well! After all the cat had killed too!

You cant condemn one killer and not another for following its instinct!

So basically the moral of the story is that all domestic animals like cats and dogs should remain house/garden bound for theyre entire life!

Ok I'm sorry the cat is dead, and do sympathise for the owner for loosing a part of the family but if she hadnt of left the cat out it wouldnt have died young!

 

[Native American]

Amazing thread.

How about accepting that animals have individual, in most cases not so easily defined personalities and levels of development depending on breed and species, environment and training, as well as gender?

Most legal codes implicitly admit that, if not explicitly. How? By holding pet owners accountable. It's the simplest way to do it without getting tied up in the relative merits (or demerits) of the pets in question, whether it be attacker or target. Accountability is defined in terms of fines or even confinement (for the owner and/or the animal). If it progresses to confinement for the owner, in many cases the attacking animal is usually destroyed by court order. This is accountability after the fact.

Actuaries simply use the numbers. They work for insurance companies, defining the odds of insurable events for underwriters. It explains why it's difficult to get homeowner's insurance in the U.S. when one has a pit bull or a rottweiler. The statistics aren't made up, and insurers base their rates on the probability of negative incident, premium required to successfully underwrite the policy and thus be able to pay out while maintaining the financial solvency of the company. I've had dog owners ask about renting property, and you guessed it, I've heard the line "My rottweiler is great with kids!" Well, a high enough percentage of rottweilers are so "great with kids" that it makes the property instantly uninsurable if I take them as a tenant. It's one of the few breeds that has earned a dog owner a 2nd degree murder conviction in this country, and on multiple occasions over the past few years. In this case, pet owners are held accountable before the fact by financial disincentive.

I've had cats for many years, and accepted that if they went outside, there were the possibilities of being run over by cars, disease from fighting with other strays (if the fight happened outside the bounds of my property, then my cat would legally be defined as a stray as well), kidnap by labs that needed living subjects, and negative encounters with stray dogs. Managing four indoor cats was difficult in times, but the rewards in companionship were outstanding.

The DNA evidence only proves the dog was in contact, and does not determine if it was after the time of death. It places the dog at the scene of the incident, if little else. The cat owner in the Leesburg, VA case needs to move on. I didn't say that said owner had to "get over it"; you don't just "get over" this sort of thing.

And yes, a dog on the street can be condemned for following its instinct. Most legal codes lump strays in the same category as feral animals until proof of ownership can be determined, and owner accountability determined by due process. Without an owner stepping up to say "that's my dog", a stray dog that attacks a person or some person's pet usually ends up being destroyed, and fairly swiftly at that.

Of course, the argument of who is at fault is probably as old as dogs chasing cats.

v/r, N-A

 

[littleimp]

Not sure if mine would actually dare attack my neighbours cats but he does chase them! Then again they do torment him and have quite often given him a smack for sticking his head through a hole in the fence! Then again the cats used to torment my old dog too........ but my dogs (touch wood) have never attacked a cat!

I suppose its all part of the circle of life as Disney kindly put it in Lion king! (cant think of any example)

But just thought what the top living thing is and thats bacteria as they destroy all dead things and turn them into the useful chemicals around us today lol (ok too much brain activity going on so better rest it now dont want to over tire myself now do I )
Like that will ever happen

Is that becuase the dog has never actually managed to catch the cat? They only reason mine got hold of one is becuase my shed door was accidently left wedged open overnight & a cat must have gone in their. I let my dog out & she went staight around the side of the house & I could here all sorts of banging & crashing so went to investigate & the dog had the cat in the shed.

 

[Dragonscales]

I personally think it is the fault of both owners if both animals were out and about. I personally keep my cats in an outside enclosure that is built off a window (we made in such a way as to allow easy removal so we can take it when we finally move - shouldn't be too soon hopefully). One side is roofed with tin to provide shade and cover while the other half is covered in wire so they can sun themselves, etc. It is completely sealed all the way around (wooden frame with wire, each side and the roof is split into sections which connect together) so they cannot escape and attack local wildlife (lots of native birds and possums, etc around here), other cats/dogs (yes dogs, they are a mean bunch lol) and for their own protection. When they aren't in the enclosure they are inside with us and don't have any chance of taking off because they simply jump through the window when it is opened.

I would personally make sure my dog was well enclosed in my yard as well and would be properly leashed when it was out of the yard.

Funny thing is my neighbor leaves both her cats out to run amok, even when she isn't home and they are often without food & water when she goes(I put some water out for them last time because she took off for around three or four days and left them with none, I don't like her but it's not her cat's fault). Her cats fight with my other neighbor's cats (they are also let out but at least that neighbor is somewhat more responsible) constantly as well. The other week she decided to bang on my door and proceeded to pretty much say that I was the bad pet owner because I keep my cats cooped up in a cage (never mind the fact that they come inside for a good chunk of every day) and that I should let them out to play with hers.

For starters, I'm not the idiot who takes off for three or so days and leaves my animals with no water. Secondly, I don't let my cats out to kill the birds, etc around here or to be ran over by the other idiots in my street who like doing burn outs and driving like morons at 100kms up a damn court. Thirdly, IF...IF I was ever to let my cats out, they would NOT "play" with her cats, they would eat them for breakfast and I'd no doubt be paying vet bills for her animals as a result, they gash each other up (not to mention me and Kelly) whenever her cats come near our porch let alone what they would do if they went out there. But according to that wanker, I am the bad pet owner. Needless to say, I let her have it bigtime and I haven't seen her since, I'm guessing that she is too scared to show her face when I am outside

 

[sekhmut0402]

I agree that both owners are at fault - neither cats or dogs should be left to roam free. My two dogs (Rottweiler & Dobermann) only go outside when one or both of us is with them, they are on their leads unless it's safe to let them off. They're not even shut in the garden so no opportunity for escape - not that anything could escape my garden, as it's totally enclosed to keep the cats in.

 

[Synirr]

I'd just like to state for the record that german shepherds, as a breed, are notorious cat killers. It ain't pretty, but it's true. Not all german shepherds are cat killers, obviously, but the breed as a whole has kept much of that natural hunting instinct and thus they are more of a potential threat to small fluffy critters than are some other breeds. An owner of such a dog needs to be particularly mindful of the nature of their individual animal.

Well, If you want to consider yourself an "animal", go right ahead. I consider myself human/mammal..not animal.

If you consider yourself a human/mammal you should consider yourself an animal, because taxonomically speaking, you are in the kingdom Animalia. Consider it a good thing, the only other options are Plantae, Monera (Prokaryota), Protista, and Fungi. The full human taxonomy is ANIMALIA - CHORDATA - MAMMALIA - PRIMATA - HOMINIDAE - HOMO - SAPIENS.

Personally...I think if my (or anyone elses) animal goes into someone elses yard and hurts/kills someone elses property..the owner of the destructive party should be held responsible for those actions (same as with children until they are 18), regardless of whether it was an accident or not.

Exactly. You expect your animals to be safe in your own backyard. If you know they have the potential to stray into dangerous areas then that's the risk you take, but it's unfair for anyone to expect you to make considerations for their animal wandering into your yard. It's ok to make a mistake once, but once they know they have an animal that strays from home and is potentially dangerous they should make absolutely sure that it never leaves the yard again. Imagine how scared I was when our neighbor's pitt bull had run my cat up a tree in our yard one day... that kind of thing shouldn't happen.

As for the other part of this thread... humans are essentially outside of evolution. The people you would expect to have the evolutionary advantage and therefore produce more children don't necessarily. If you think about it, with all our modern medical advances, we're prolonging the lives of people with what would have once been fatal genetic diseases and weak immune systems to the point that they are able to live long enough to reproduce, so in a sense there's a chance we are actually weakening our species. Aren't cancer rates rising?

With the invention of contraceptives we can choose whether or not the reproduce while still satisfying our natural desires, so those that live longer and are more successful may not reproduce at all. THAT is how we humans are different from the rest of the animal kingdom. Our intellect and ability to change our environment has brought us outside of certain laws of nature. We're still subject to the same forces that drive all other animals, though. We may have a little more going on inside our heads, but we still eat, sleep, and f**k just like the rest of them. Anyone who likes to pretend we're not animals is fooling themself, in my opinion.