case of the missing ventrals

[fourplayfishy]

the genetis is possible though wuv depending on how far back the gene goes and how many fish before it had none

 

[cation]

CC and I have both discussed the scuzzy bottom idea. Knowing we both keep our tanks immaculate,that can't be it.

That's the thing - you can't see bacteria, and if it is sticking to the tank, you wouldn't be able to remove it through water changes.

Marianne at bcbettas says:

"Missing Ventrals
This has been a major ordeal for us and we have finally got to the root of the problem. In fish tanks there is bacteria that grows this is very normal if the bacteria is kept to normal levels. In fry tanks this is quite difficult to do has it is not so easy keeping the bottom of the tanks clean. We have resolved this issue by adding an airstone to the tanks to keep the water well circulated and the fry of the bottom of the tank most of the time. Dry commercial foods can also be a problem as this sinks down to the bottom of the tank and causes abnormal bacteria grown.
Every second day from when the male is removed we siphon the bottom of the tank and wipe carefully with a sponge. "

These guys are less sure...

"What Causes Missing Ventral?
There is still no definite answer on this issue yet. However, majority believes that the missing ventrals are due to environmentally induced problem. Some also believe that any product with copper in it, such as Aqaurisol, may be the cause of the missing ventral. In addition, some suggest that water hardness, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc., are the culprits. Sad to say, no one knows the definite answer"



I agree that it could be cauised by nipping - however, in cc's case it seems like the fry shouldn't be showing that kind of agression so young, should they?

Please don't take this as me saying y'all don't keep your water clean - I know you both are really, really good about that.


PS - Do you guys use Aquarisol? I know a lot of people here do...

 

[wuvmybetta]

Yes, I've seen that same tired quote before. I'm telling you that I don't buy it. Out of 100's of fry and as I've said...not a scuz free bottom, why don't I have more ventral-less fry than I do? Seems I should since I don't wipe down,right?

Also,it's not aggression, it's anticipation that causes the fry to nip at that age. They get ventrals around 3 weeks, at 4 weeks they begin to gather and get shovey at feeding time. They do indeed nip the piss out of each other everytime you stand in front of them.

These guys are less sure

am I missing something...

He says no one knows til now and then...nothing. Is he sitting on the answer or what?

 

[cutecotton]

hmmm i've read that quote before too i really dont' know if it's genetics, or environment. I do have to agree with wuv's idea that the fry does get a little too excited when it coimes to feeding time and it worries me

At 4 weeks, the fry all scramble to the front of the tank and gather in a corner waiting for food.

at 5 weeks - 6 weeks, they now know how to JUMP out of the water tryign to eat the tweezers i've seen a few nipped fins already..it's not aggerssion, it's just they want to eat and end up nipping each other thinking it's food.

I guess ventrals must resemble bloodwroms to fry eyes soemtime yesterday i even saw a fry nip at the poop of a pooping fry

i dont' think it's necessary to scrub down the tank every time there is a water change, i iddn't want my fry to live on a comepltely sterile environment, if changing the water so frequently already sint' enough, how on earth do they manage to have ventrals in the wild?

still amazed at the number that came out ventral-less though

 

[cation]

Wuv, I wondered the same thing. I thought, "stop being a jerk, tell us!".

Shows what I know, I was only thinking about aggression, not about feeding excitement.


Yeah, I don't know. The topic has also come up on another betta forum I frequent, but I didn't quote any of their info cause it's just more of the same.




Hmmm...Did a bit more research, and now I'm more and more convinced that I'm agreeing with the genetic theory. Check out this abstract from a study out of the Max Planck institute (VERY highly regarded in the scientific world):

"Ober EA. Schulte-Merker S. (1999) Signals from the yolk cell induce mesoderm, neuroectoderm, the trunk organizer, and the notochord in zebrafish. Developmental Biology 215 (2):167-181.

We have analyzed the role of the zebrafish yolk cell in the processes of mesoderm induction and establishment of the organizer. By recombining blastomere-free yolk cells and animal cap tissue we have shown that the yolk cell itself can induce mesoderm in neighboring blastomeres. We further demonstrate the competence of all blastomeres to form mesoderm, suggesting the endogenous mesoderm inducing signal to be locally restricted. Ablation of the vegetal third of the yolk cell during the first 20 min of development does not interfere with mesoderm formation in general, but results in completely ventralized embryos. These embryos lack the notochord, neuroectoderm, and the anterior-most 14-15 somites, demonstrating that the ablation affects the formation of the trunk-, but not the tail region of the embryo. This suggests the presence of a trunk organizer in fish. The dorsalized mutant swirl (zbmp-2b) shows expanded dorsal structures and missing ventral structures. In contrast to the phenotypes obtained upon the ablation treatment in wild-type embryos, removal of the vegetal-most yolk in swirl mutants results in embryos which do form neuroectoderm and anterior trunk somites. However, both wild-type and swirl mutants lack a notochord upon vegetal yolk removal. These ablation experiments in wild-type and swirl mutant embryos demonstrate that in zebrafish dorsal determining factors originate from the vegetal part of the yolk cell. These factors set up two independent activities: one induces the notochord and the other is involved in the formation of the neuroectoderm and the trunk region by counteracting the function of swirl. In addition, these experiments show that the establishment of the anteroposterior axis is independent of the dorsoventral axis.

 

[wuvmybetta]

hmmm i've read that quote before too i really dont' know if it's genetics, or environment. I do have to agree with wuv's idea that the fry does get a little too excited when it coimes to feeding time and it worries me

At 4 weeks, the fry all scramble to the front of the tank and gather in a corner waiting for food.

at 5 weeks - 6 weeks, they now know how to JUMP out of the water tryign to eat the tweezers i've seen a few nipped fins already..it's not aggerssion, it's just they want to eat and end up nipping each other thinking it's food.

I guess ventrals must resemble bloodwroms to fry eyes soemtime yesterday i even saw a fry nip at the poop of a pooping fry

i dont' think it's necessary to scrub down the tank every time there is a water change, i iddn't want my fry to live on a comepltely sterile environment, if changing the water so frequently already sint' enough, how on earth do they manage to have ventrals in the wild?

still amazed at the number that came out ventral-less though

I agree,the number is a bit high. A woman in the Houston club has started growing her fry in a large pond out back. She's reported a few less males than usual but that's assumed to be birds grabbing them since they hang towards the surface. But she's also said that she's pulling out some of the most amazing fish ever.

She dumps them at a couple of weeks and I'm certain the bottom is quite scuzzy. No reports of missing ventrals, I'll email her tonight and ask.

 

[cation]

yesterday i even saw a fry nip at the poop of a pooping fry

Man, my guppies are notorious poop-eaters. Gross.

 

[xXMrBonesXx]

mr.bones - ur rightt, ehy do live full and happy lives without ventrals, and since i'm not entering them into shows or anything like that, it doesnt' really make a difference. Except i do plan to sell them and i doubt someone would want a betta that deosnt' have ventrals

i would take a couple if they had an alright colouring on them

A woman in the Houston club has started growing her fry in a large pond out back. She's reported a few less males than usual but that's assumed to be birds grabbing them since they hang towards the surface. But she's also said that she's pulling out some of the most amazing fish ever.

*notices the evil grin on wuvs face*

 

[Inchworm]

If it's being caused by bacteria, I wonder why it would stop at eroding the ventrals. Wouldn't such an infection continue to spread and damage the other fins and tail and perhaps kill the fry?

 

[cation]

Inchie - I formally withdraw my bacterial arguement after reading the abstract I posted. I'm jumping on the genetics bandwagon! The more I look, the more I believe it's all about the notochord.

 

[cutecotton]

cation that article made my head spin can someone translate that to english for me please

the betta never ate the poop, he just nipped at it, and probably thought it was a blackworm (i guess poop can look like blackworms..) these guys are absolutely VICIOUS when it comes to feeding them forget table manners!

wuv: i've heard of ppl riasing bettas like that too...if i had an outdoor pond i'd try it, but heck i'm having enough problems rasiign this batch already i think maybe it could be a mixture of genetics and fin nipping. I found a fry yesterday that only had one ventral...it was beatiful, but only had one ventral

what happens if you breed a betta without ventrals wtih one that didnt' have ventrals? would you get fry that didtn' have ventrals? if someone did that i'm sure we'd be able tot ell if it was genetic or not

inchworm i thought the asme thing...plus fry from my first spawn went through much much MUCH worse living conditions, yet they still have ventrals! in fact,4 of the 5 fry from my first spawn has ventrals. I wasn't very good at riasing them back then and did water changes every few weeks and didn't even do such a good job at cleaning the bottom the bottom of their tank was much more icky than the the newer fry's tank, so if anything, i thought *they* would be the ones wtihout ventrals

 

[cation]

what happens if you breed a betta without ventrals wtih one that didnt' have ventrals? would you get fry that didtn' have ventrals? if someone did that i'm sure we'd be able tot ell if it was genetic or not

Unfortunately, it's developmental genetics, which are not usually traits regulated by one gene. Things get kinda complicated.

The article basically says(I think) that in zebrafish (commonly used in general fish studies - think primate studies that are used to draw conclusions about humans. ), the development of the dorsal and ventral structures is mediated by a gene (or set of genes) in the fishes yolk sac that controls development of the trunk. If you change these genes through elimination or mutation (I don't know cause I only could access the abstract, not the whole article), the fish does not develop the same ventral structures - perhaps a ventral fin or fins. In this case, the response of the fishes body was to not grow the ventral structures, but the fish did have expanded dorsal structures - kinda like the growth of the ventral structure was channelled into the dorsal instead, making it a bit bigger then normal. Does that make any more sense?


***Keep in mind that they are not specifically talking about fins...the aticle is simply discussing the development of dorsal (top) and ventral (bottom) structures - this may or may not include fins, I would guess their development is mediated by the method discussed in the abstract as well.***

 

[Inchworm]

..inchworm i thought the asme thing...plus fry from my first spawn went through much much MUCH worse living conditions, yet they still have ventrals! in fact,4 of the 5 fry from my first spawn has ventrals. I wasn't very good at riasing them back then and did water changes every few weeks and didn't even do such a good job at cleaning the bottom the bottom of their tank was much more icky than the the newer fry's tank, so if anything, i thought *they* would be the ones wtihout ventrals

Hi CC

Were the fry from your first batch from the same parents?

Let's face it, it's just about impossible to keep the tank bottom spotless. Fry - any kind - are little eating machines and they are constantly excreting waste. With corys, they waddle in it so I do the best I can. (Which is a lot of cleaning right from day one.) Whatever bacteria is there will either not harm them or will kill them. I don't see any evidence of partial damage, ever!

Bacteria are bacteria and fish are fish. Would bacteria know which fish is which? I don't think so. Beside, if it was bacteria, wouldn't someone have been able to identify it and name it?

 

[endparenthesis]

I love having a scientist here.

Since I currently have ONE fry with ventrals, I believe I'll be using very high quality stock next time.

 

[f250fisherman]

All I do know is this. When I put the dwarf corys in thre fry tank, I had larger survival rates in the spawn tank, and less missing ventrals on 2 consecutive spawns. I was given the challenge to try it before disbelieving it. I accepted the challenge, and was pleased with the outcome. If you never try it, you will not be able to truly say it does not work. If you choose to not believe it before trying it, then I hope you will find another way to help the problem, because there doesn't seem to be any better answer to this point.
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