Cant Get It Right

Ehudd

Fish Crazy
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
294
Reaction score
0
Alright where to start!!!
i got no nitrates, nitrite and ammonia. My ph is 8.2 and remains stable. But what is annoying me is that my calcium wont go past 360!! i am even adding calcium sup in everyday now and still will not go past that mark! one day my coraline is growning the next it goes white and just keep repeating the process. I like LR, thats all i have in my tank cos i think its better than coral. how do i get it past that mark. I know that Phosphates effect it, but i dont have any phosphates.
Please help me
 
Ok stop adding calcium. If you truly want to dose to grow coraline algae you must first understand A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, and pH to the point that you can internalize it. The exceptionally long story short is that all four of those properties are in relationship and balance with each other. Over-dosing any single element can lead to temporary crashes in all 4, thus causing the white-outs you're seeing.

Once you've read that article, you need to read An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System to figure out what to dose.

And lastly, if you really want explosive coraline growth you'll need high-powered lights.
 
I have 4 fluros, 2 power glows (18K) 1 marine glow and a phillips actinic. I dont want to go with metal halides not really worth it on such a shallow tank. It is very bright and i would say the lighting is fine. but thanks Ski i will deffinately read that man. You are a help to everyone here i really comend u.
Keep it up.
 
I dont understand the Solubility of Simple Solids
I dont see how this is useful for anything... i didnt pass school, i was a druggy for 3 years, i am now clean and i seem to find any excuse not to understand things. Is this hard stuff? cause i just dont get it.
 
I just finished reading, i feel stupid that this is hard for me to understand. But i think i have a relative idea.
If i have a high concentration of magnesium then my alkalinity and calcium will take longer to deplete?
Also My KH is at around 8.
If i continue to add Carbonate weekly, how can i add Bicarbonate? It says corals turn the bicarbonate into carbonate to extend their calcium carbonate Skeleton. Do they need to do this? If i add just Carbonate and it requires to for its skeleton, would this be fine?
Sorry Ski, i am confused as all hell mate lol. you do simplify things better.
Could u blot down the main points i should of gotten out of this reading? Sorry to be a pain
 
What, you want the cliffs notes version? :p

Ok, lets see here. There are 3 importan concepts in there. Fist; the solubility of simple solids, second; saturation and supersaturation, and third; precipitation.

A simple ionic solid (like calcium chloride) can dissolve in pure water. That means that the ions seperate in solution and are essentially suspended in the solution. They dissolve and seem to "dissappear" to us.

You can keep adding calcium chloride salts to a fixed volume of water up to a given point. Eventually, the water becomes stuffed full of ions and cant hold anymore. At that point, if you add more CaCl, it does not dissolve. It remains a solid salt. That concentration is the point of saturation. Saturation points change if multiple ions are added to a solution. So while pure water may be able to dissolve the equivalent of 2000ppm of CaCl only, when you start adding NaCl, CO3 (carbonate), 2CO3 (bicorbonate), Mg (magnesium), and other ions, the amount of CaCl it can hold diminishes.

A good analogy would be if you have a 5g bucket, you could fill it all with 5g worth of water, but what if you wanted to add other things like rocks, dirt, toys, etc? Then some of the water has to be removed to still have only 5g of capacity. Hope that makes sense

Along with saturation (the point at which water cannot hold anymore ions), is supersaturation. By using liquid additives it is possible to temporarily create a point of supersaturation of an ionic solid in water. In other words, the chemicals you dose are usually only the chemicals you dose. A very high concentration exhists in those bottles. When you pour them in they start mixing with your tank water which is allready nearly saturated. For a breif period, the water will be at a point beyond its saturation basically having more ions in the water than is possible. This is called supersaturation and is inherently unstable.

When a supersaturation exhists in solution, one of two things has to happen. Either the ion dissolves into the larger volume, or it precipitates out of solution and becomes solid again. Since our tanks are nearly saturated and a fixed volume, usually the only option is precipitation. In marine aquaria, when too much calcium is dosed and alkalinity and pH remain low-moderate you reach a point of supersaturation of calcium. Then the Ca++ ions have to become a solid again. They cannot become Ca2 (calcium salt) as this is highly unstable and explosive in water. Instead they bond with CO3-2 (bicarbonate) to create calcium carbonate (a white crusty salt). Unfortunately the reaction that combines Ca++ with CO3-2 will continue from the point of supersaturation, down to the point of saturation, and continue to well below the point of saturation as the reaction is favorable.

So when you add Only a CaCl additive, your momentary concentration of Ca++ jumps well up over 500-600ppm. This is chemically unstable and it binds with bicarbonate and crashes well below 300ppm. That crash causes your coraline to stress and become white. The resulting crash and temporarily low pH causes some of the CaCO3 that is created in the crash (but not all) to re-dissolve and bring your levels back up to around 350ppm/8dKH. This is a very common problem with beginner aquarists that only test for one element and not any of the other two. Maintaining a proper balance between calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium will greatly benefit your tank in the long run.

So where should you go from here? Start by slowly dosing bi-carbonate to bring your dKH up to around 10. Once there, start dosing calcium to bring that up to around 400ppm. Do not stop dosing bi-carbonate during this time scale as maintaining a stable alkalinity is required. If magnesium is way out of whack, go ahead and dose that, but its probably in the ballpark. Once you reach about 400/10 you can go for say 420/11, and probably a decent stable area for growing coraline is around 440/12. Attemt to keep Mg over 1250ppm during this process. Remember, this is of utmost imoprtance: Never dose multiple chemicals simultaneously. Adding a calcium and a carbonate additive to the same tank at the same time is just asking for precipitation to occur. Wait at least 30 minutes between doses.

Hope that makes sense.
 
thank you. What u were saying deffinately made sense.
Although i still dont understand how it can turn into a solid in your fish tank. What does it look like?
this Thread will now be my Diary, A road to Recovery!
P.H. 8.2
KH 9.5 (i have a carbonate hardness generator powder, is this adding HCO3 and CO3?
calcium 340pmm (damit!)

I dont have a magnesium test kit
http://www.salifert.com/ go into the supplement and go to ALL IN ONE. I have this supplement, could u tell me if it is good?
thanks man you r always such a big help!
 
Gotta be honest, never used or heard of that product. I do know that Salifert in general makes good products though so I wouldnt see any harm in trying it.
 
I also have Red Sea Calcium +3.
What would you recommend?
 
Well, the scientist in me is curious as to whether the salifert would work. It says on their site that periodic supplimental dosing of alkalinity may be required when using that salifert product. This doesn't surprise me as alk is the hardest of the 3 to keep up during the dosing process. Keep monitoring calc/alk throughout the dosing process and see what happens. If you decide to go with the Redsea additive remember it ONLY doses calcium, so keep dosing carbonate/bicarbonate.
 
thank you. What u were saying deffinately made sense.

thanks man you r always such a big help!


Ski knows all!!

just to say don't feel stupid if you don't get it all straight off, I can definately sympathise with your situation, been there myself. All this technical stuff is really hard to get your head around, but if I can get it with a little help from our friends (mostly ski!) then you can too, so stick with it. :good:
 
Well i think i am going with the red sea. I have Calcium +3 and Magnesium. I also have a Carbonate hardness generator.
KH is on 10 now.
I have used the calcium and magnesium as directed. I really hope to see results.
I dont know my magnesium, and i cant find a test kit in any lfs.
 

Most reactions

Back
Top