Can somebody settle my argument

[The Lumpfish Guy]

I’m not gonna pretend I understood most of that but I think my brain dumbed a bit down for me but I’m still lost on the fertility part lol I get it A bit , don’t mean to be a real forest gump here but there is no way of knowing if a ram and acara would breed naturally

So Ligers cannot breed any further, if you want more ligers you have to keep breeding lions and tigers

 

[Ch4rlie]

Interesting and makes a lot of sense logically.

What he is saying due to geography or countries / regions where there are certain similar species are found it can be nigh on impossible for the two similar species in each countries or regions for these two species to meet and therefore breed.

And there are certain species who will only breed at certain times or in certain situations. So that it makes it extremely unlikely that the two different species will breed due to their instinct to breed only at those certain times or situations.

As for fertility, it is common for two completely different animals that are specifically or artificially inseminated by a breeder to breed those two animals together and the resulting offspring will therefore become deliberately infertile meaning not being able to breed at all as it is not a natural combination.

As for a ram and an acara to breed naturally, I do not know as I don’t know enough of these two species to make an accurate determination but I would not have thought so.

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

What he is saying

Thanks

 

[Guyb93]

Interesting and makes a lot of sense logically.

What he is saying due to geography or countries / regions where there are certain similar species are found it can be nigh on impossible for the two similar species in each countries or regions for these two species to meet and therefore breed.

And there are certain species who will only breed at certain times or in certain situations. So that it makes it extremely unlikely that the two different species will breed due to their instinct to breed only at those certain times or situations.

As for fertility, it is common for two completely different animals that are specifically or artificially inseminated by a breeder to breed those two animals together and the resulting offspring will therefore become deliberately infertile meaning not being able to breed at all as it is not a natural combination.

As for a ram and an acara to breed naturally, I do not know as I don’t know enough of these two species to make an accurate determination but I would not have thought so.

I’m just being awkward now as you explained beautifuly for me lol but there are asiatic lions so it’s not completely unreasonable that they could encounter a tiger , and also a mule donkeys mixed with a horse , both are equine and can be found in same location so why are these infertile lol nature just baffles me ahahahh

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

I’m just being awkward now as you explained beautifuly for me lol but there are asiatic lions so it’s not completely unreasonable that they could encounter a tiger , and also a mule donkeys mixed with a horse , both are equine and can be found in same location so why are these infertile lol nature just baffles me ahahahh

So the infertility comes from a wide range of things like, chromosome number, differing mechanisms for determining sex ect. That comes down to quite in depth reproductive biology, but simply means that they cannot produce viable (working) eggs or sperm.

 

[Ch4rlie]

So the infertility comes from a wide range of things like, chromosome number, differing mechanisms for determining sex ect. That comes down to quite in depth reproductive biology, but simply means that they cannot produce viable (working) eggs or sperm.

That was very nicely put together to explain that, I was about to start typing something but I reckon you did a far superior job than what I would have said

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

That was very nicely put together to explain that, I was about to start typing something but I reckon you did a far superior job than what I would have said

Thanks

 

[Wills]

Wow lots of info in here already

I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that I think the Electric Blue fish could happen in nature but it is only likely to be one or two in the brood, they are also said to be weak genetically compared to the regular strains as it is a mutation.

In EBJD you can get electric blue gene JD's (EBGJDs) which were regular JD colours but the offspring would include EBJDs so I dont think the electric blues are hybrids they are a line bred mutation.

When the EBJD first appeared about 8-9 years ago there were loads of really weak fish stock around and you had to be careful as some just died at a few months old. I believe that over time the commercial breeders were able to find the stronger ones to get the stock from. Those lessons were then learned for EBAs and EBRs.

I do not think yours will be wild caught... that is likely a pile of... well you know... I think in the wild they would be the weaker fish in the brood and would likely be out competed by the others and also being unusually coloured would be picked off by predators - like albino animals.

Wills

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

While not necessarily wrong, just want to pick up on a couple of things.

they are also said to be weak genetically compared to the regular strains as it is a mutation.... would be the weaker fish in the brood...

Mutation does not equate to weakness, Apposable thumbs is a mutation, blonde hair is a mutation, attached earlobes are mutations. being an organism made up of more than 1 cell is a mutation, having a mitochondria is a mutation.

Genetic traits can provide a biological advantage or disadvantage and you are right, being brightly coloured could attract predators and leave you at a disadvantage. But mutation is not synonymous with bad or weakness

hybrids they are a line bred mutation

Hybridisation is not mutation it is a separate biological process

Hybridisation is the Process of combining different organisms, also called crossbreeding. This is very very common in plants for example

Whereas mutation is a change in the DNA sequence, this can lead to different physiological differences within an organism. This can literally happen every time DNA replicates.

 

[Wills]

While not necessarily wrong, just want to pick up on a couple of things.


Mutation does not equate to weakness, Apposable thumbs is a mutation, blonde hair is a mutation, attached earlobes are mutations. being an organism made up of more than 1 cell is a mutation, having a mitochondria is a mutation.

Genetic traits can provide a biological advantage or disadvantage and you are right, being brightly coloured could attract predators and leave you at a disadvantage. But mutation is not synonymous with bad or weakness


Hybridisation is not mutation it is a separate biological process

Hybridisation is the Process of combining different organisms, also called crossbreeding. This is very very common in plants for example

Whereas mutation is a change in the DNA sequence, this can lead to different physiological differences within an organism. This can literally happen every time DNA replicates.

Sorry dont think I explained myself well - I think we agree

I dont think they are weak because of the electric blue mutation, electric blue jack dempseys were known to be weak fish which was associated with the mutation. I believe the electric blues are picked out at a very early stage of development as they were known to be out competed.

Wills

 

[Guyb93]

This has got way to Mensa for me lol I’d like to think that if the combo makes fertile young and can be found in the same water there is a slight chance they might breed naturally ,who knows , and yeah wild caught is a seemingly stupid buy lol but I will say the difference between my apparent wild caught and locally bred is notable, the so called wild caught are what I would say are low quality they are less attractive and less blue , not saying they are wild kind of saying I got ripped off even worse Ahahahah

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

Sorry dont think I explained myself well - I think we agree

I dont think they are weak because of the electric blue mutation, electric blue jack dempseys were known to be weak fish which was associated with the mutation. I believe the electric blues are picked out at a very early stage of development as they were known to be out competed.

Wills

We do

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things as it read (at least to me) like you were equating mutations with weakness.

I can't talk specifically about the EBJD's but in the situation you are describing "fitness" or lack of, would be the better phrasing.
Fitness being an organisms ability to survive and reproduce. Hence the phrase "Survival of the fittest"
Biological fitness in this case not necessarily meaning strength or speed ect

 

[Guyb93]

While not necessarily wrong, just want to pick up on a couple of things.


Mutation does not equate to weakness, Apposable thumbs is a mutation, blonde hair is a mutation, attached earlobes are mutations. being an organism made up of more than 1 cell is a mutation, having a mitochondria is a mutation.

Genetic traits can provide a biological advantage or disadvantage and you are right, being brightly coloured could attract predators and leave you at a disadvantage. But mutation is not synonymous with bad or weakness


Hybridisation is not mutation it is a separate biological process

Hybridisation is the Process of combining different organisms, also called crossbreeding. This is very very common in plants for example

Whereas mutation is a change in the DNA sequence, this can lead to different physiological differences within an organism. This can literally happen every time DNA replicates.

And as for thumbs there’s a fine line between mutation and evolution in my option , same for blonde hair and blue eyes , selective breeding they are considered more attractive so the genre passes further , is that a mutation?

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

And as for thumbs there’s a fine line between mutation and evolution in my option , same for blonde hair and blue eyes , selective breeding they are considered more attractive so the genre passes further , is that a mutation?

With all due respect you are wrong. There is no opinion on this mutations and evolution and the mechanisms which they effect and are affected by are well documented biological theories.

Mutations and evolution are not separate.

As I said above Mutations are change which occur within DNA, and at some point this will result in physiological (eg hair colour, eye colour, tall, short) changes. So while apposable thumbs are a mutation, It is Natural selection which drives the prevalence of a mutation within a population, which has the potential to lead to something called speciation. ( creation of a new species)

Selective breeding is just man made Natural Selection, instead of nature deciding that one trait is "desirable" we are doing it. Take all of the dog breeds for example. Or what a wild Betta looks like compared to one in your LFS

The mutation of blonde hair and blue eyes would have occurred in the human genome, however this does not provide a biological advantage in Africa or similar latitudes. But it does in high latitudes where the decreased melanin allows for more vitamin D creation in shorter days, thus providing a biological advantage at high latitudes over darker coloured skin and increasing it's prevalence in those populations. This change does not go far enough to create different species, but is a very good example of how a mutation can drive population differences.

Evolution just describes the changes in the overall genetic profile of the entire population, eg a move towards blonde hair and blue eyes in higher latitudes, or changes in beak size and shape in Darwins finches.

These are all part of the same process;
Mutations are "acted" upon by Natural Selection which "causes" Evolution of a population, which can lead to Speciation (Creation of a new species, story for another time)

 

[The Lumpfish Guy]

An

Interestingly, you are from the Midlands right?
There is a good evolution example for the midlands.

Pre industrial revolution the moths which nested on Birch trees were white ( blended in with the colour and thus didn't get eaten by predators). A mutation had occurred in the population which resulted in a black colour wings, but they were not as camouflaged so there was less of them in the population (10% overall eg).

During the industrial revolution the trees were coated in Black soot near the mills and factories, So these black moths were now camouflaged better than the white moths and didn't get eaten as much so they became the largest part of the population (90% eg).

After the introduction of the clean air acts, the trees were cleaner and the white moths had the advantage again so the overall population changed back to white (90% eg)

The mutation was the colour
Natural selection was the predators and sooty trees
Evolution was the population change from white to black then black to white

Story on the BBC here : https://www.bbc.com/news/science-en...covered the specific,and walls of its habitat.

(Simplified)