can I ? ??

[Figure-8]

what cichlids can i put my Clown Loachs with in my 55 gal tank? There is tons of spots to hide and i have a underground tunnel under my sand that goes under the whole tank.

 

[Morrgan]

Excuse me, but I thought I made it clear that you can't do that because of their different water requirements? In my other post I meant ask about what other cichlids to keep with the one you have.

 

[Figure-8]

oh ok i thought you meant to ask the question in the african cichlids fourm.

 

[Morrgan]

Heh, sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Figure-8]

its allright.

 

[Morrgan]

Hmm, are you interested in South American cichlids at all? Just occured to me that their requirements usually match the clown loaches'.

 

[Figure-8]

german blue rams are south american right. Only thing my lfs dont realy carry much of the south american.

 

[Exiled]

I've seen some very succesful african cichlid tanks also containing clown loaches....
I believe that the loaches are somewhat adaptable to different water parameters than what is optimal for them. I'd watch them for signs of stress, and getting picked on by the cichlids. Also, you'll have to feed them some sort of sinking food, specifically for them--as african cichlids' diet is more in the realm of vegetation than meat and detritus which makes them ill.

Is your 55g tank is already established as a standard freshwater tank? What is the water like now? What other fish are in it? If it's already established, I'd stick with that tank as a tropical tank and start a separate distinct tank just for the cichlids who do best in hi pH, KH, and need more filtration than your standard tropical tank--although it never hurts to over-filter those tanks as well.

Also--you might want to ask Freshmike about this topic, he has some clown loaches in his Malawi tank.

 

[Morrgan]

Yes, they are South American. Other ones are the Apistogramma dwarf cichlids, angelfish, firemouths and convict cichlids, just to name a few.

There are a few non-Rift Valley cichlids in Africa too. The African butterfly cichlid (not sure if that's the correct English name, the scientific one is Anomalochromis thomasi) and the kribensis and its relatives come to mind. Does your LFS have any of those?

EDIT: I really don't see how you can keep clown loaches and Rift Valley cichlids together without one or the other suffering from wrong water parameters... The trouble with this is that some of the more hardy species can suffer from that without showing it on the outside, but will just be more prone to illnesses and have a shorter life.

 

[Figure-8]

Ok well i think ill try it and if it dont work i can move them to a different tank. And the thing about needing different water requirements is that where i live we have hard water and the clown loach and all of my fish live in it.

 

[Morrgan]

Well, just because they live in it, doesn't mean they like it much. As I said, it's just so hard to tell by looking at an individual, more hardy fish whether it's having trouble with the wrong water or not. It will just live in constant stress from the wrong environment, without any visible signs.

 

[thecichlidaddict]

Don't get too caught up in water parameters, they are actually not that important within reason - fish, as exiled already pointed out , are quite adaptable, and Clowns have been used in rift aquariums successfully by many keepers.

 

[Morrgan]

So how long do clowns live in hard water? Do they ever get ill? I'd like to hear some personal experiences.

I do get caught up with having fish in wrong water parameters. Of course it depends on the specific species, but in general keeping soft water fish in hard water affects their growth, reproduction (ok, so not a problem with clowns, but in general) and immune system, even if the fish will adapt well enough to survive. They will continually be subjected to osmotic stress, which I understand strains the function of their kidneys. Why do that to a fish when you don't have to?

 

[thecichlidaddict]

Morrgan

The mis-belief about water parameters is based on what the water is in the fishes natural environment. If research shows that a fish lives in soft or hard water, it is assumed that this is what they need.

It has been proven by many aquarists that this, for the most part, is not true. A sudden, drastic change in parameters can most certainly shock the fish and cause health problems, but otherwise there is, in fact, no difference for the fish themselves. More often then not our fish are bred in plain old tap water in the first place, and by adjusting the water you may actually be forcing the fish to adapt to the new water when your plain water would have been perfect.

The only exception is for breeding. The fish will actually breed in the 'wrong' water, but if it is too far off this can have an affect on the number of eggs that will hatch.

I've kept my Afrcian rift fish in water just over 7, and I've kept my new worlds in water over 8.2. My Nicaraguensis are actually in that kind of water even now and are doing extremely well. My experience has lead me to believe that freshwater fish can handle a wide range of parameters, within reason.

I did an experiment in a 25 gallon Multifasciatus tank. I started them with nice, hard and alkaline water, just like in Tanganyika. Gh was 10, ph was 8.4. They were kept in that water for about 6 months. They lived well, never got sick, and bred like cichlids. Then I gradually brought down the water to as low as I can safely get it and still keep it stable, about 7.4 ph, 3 gh. They lived well, never got sick, and bred like cichlids, though there did seem to be a decrease in the number of fry.

Most of the avid long-time aquarists that I have met in real life over the years do what I do, and leave the water as it is.

 

[Morrgan]

The mis-belief about water parameters is based on what the water is in the fishes natural environment. If research shows that a fish lives in soft or hard water, it is assumed that this is what they need.

The research I'm talking about has studied what happens in a fish when it is put in different water from it's original environment, even after a slow introduction period. It's not just saying that since a fish comes from a certain water it needs to stay in that water. As I already said, and what your experiment proved, not all fish are affected in the same way. Some fish are just not that fuzzy about water parameters and for those it doesn't matter what type of water they originally come from.

Still, others are. For example guppies that are bred in too soft water are more prone to illnesses, their spine gets bent and their offspring have a higher chance of having mutations. You can't say that they are fine in soft water then, can you? Perhaps it's their quick reproduction rate that shows the effects quicker? I'm not sure.

Another group of unsuitable fish are the ones that refuse to breed in the wrong water. Or ones that do, but their eggs either won't hatch at all, or hatch poorly. In my opinion this shows that those fish are unsuitable to live in that environment and thus shouldn't be kept in that environment at all.

Just out of curiosity, how long did your Multifasciatus live well?

I myself started out without measuring any parameters. I recently "started my hobby again", better prepared this time. It turned out that the water in my soft water fish tank was harder than it should be. There are a few really tough fish in there, ages 7-10 years. Still, these fish have not reached their full size nor have they ever bred.

Another thing I'm ashamed to say is that these "oldies" are only a few of many fish I have kept. Most soft-water fish I have kept in that quite hard water have died too soon, only after 2-3 years. It's hard to say whether or not just the water parameters are to blame, but I certainly don't rule that out. Once I get the outside canister filter for that tank, I'll start filtrating through peat to lower the hardness. After that we can see whether or not the majority starts living to their expected age and size.