Can guppies and swordtails survive in 'blackwater' ?

[anewbie]

I have a 40B with some legacy domestic guppies and swordtails. The tap water is approx gh 6 (tds 120). I'd like to transition this tank to blackwater for some interesting dwarf cichild to fill in the bottom. Will the poor reminants of guppeis and swordtails i have survive the transitiion @emeraldking ?

 

[GaryE]

"Can" versus "should"...

If you create real blackwater, as opposed to just flinging in botanicals with no regard to mineral content, the answer is no. With almost no measurable hardness, swordtails will do poorly. Guppies survive in lots of different waters, but I noticed they were in coastal water in Africa, and thankfully hadn't survived their introduction to blackwater interior habitats.

It would be very physically stressful to the fish.

Blackwater is usually tannin loaded, but in the 50 or less tds zone. You won't have blackwater tanks at 120 tds. I had 140 tds for years, and for blackwater dwarf Cichlids, I needed to cut it by 2/3 with rainwater, snow melt or later, RO.

 

[Fishfunn]

I have a 40B with some legacy domestic guppies and swordtails. The tap water is approx gh 6 (tds 120). I'd like to transition this tank to blackwater for some interesting dwarf cichild to fill in the bottom. Will the poor reminants of guppeis and swordtails i have survive the transitiion @emeraldking ?

Always try to duplicate the natural water parameters of any fish that you keep. This ensures the best health and longevity for the fish.

 

[anewbie]

"Can" versus "should"...

If you create real blackwater, as opposed to just flinging in botanicals with no regard to mineral content, the answer is no. With almost no measurable hardness, swordtails will do poorly. Guppies survive in lots of different waters, but I noticed they were in coastal water in Africa, and thankfully hadn't survived their introduction to blackwater interior habitats.

It would be very physically stressful to the fish.

Blackwater is usually tannin loaded, but in the 50 or less tds zone. You won't have blackwater tanks at 120 tds. I had 140 tds for years, and for blackwater dwarf Cichlids, I needed to cut it by 2/3 with rainwater, snow melt or later, RO.

Yea that is what i thought - yea i'll be reducing it to ~15 tds. I'll move them in with the angels and krobia and let them do as they do. When i said black water i meant 'real black water' not that phony stuff people think a bit of tannis create.

 

[GaryE]

Yea that is what i thought - yea i'll be reducing it to ~15 tds. I'll move them in with the angels and krobia and let them do as they do. When i said black water i meant 'real black water' not that phony stuff people think a bit of tannis create.

No disrespect intended, but I've read people who thought a few tannin producers in 300 ppm water was the real thing. There are a few teabag tanks out there.

You may be very surprised at what you can do if you acquire some real blackwater tetras. Their colours can be something very interesting in tannin stained water. Beware with 15 ppm though - it makes for a very unstable tank if you are not meticulous about water changes.

 

[anewbie]

No disrespect intended, but I've read people who thought a few tannin producers in 300 ppm water was the real thing. There are a few teabag tanks out there.

You may be very surprised at what you can do if you acquire some real blackwater tetras. Their colours can be something very interesting in tannin stained water. Beware with 15 ppm though - it makes for a very unstable tank if you are not meticulous about water changes.

I do 50% water changes on all my blackwater aquariums 'cept the discus tank which has 50 cardinals. I also use peat (which some people frown upon) to stablize the ph. My vague understanding of the chemistry is as long as the ph stays below 7 the fishes are happy as something weird happens with the bacteria if it gets too high.

Gotta say those wc blue rams are very very nice.

 

[GaryE]

Peat is a non renewable resource in many bogs, and a lot of people have become worried about the rate it's being extracted versus the rate at which new peat is being created. So it's an issue.

I have a lot of it here, as I bought big bales before the issue had been raised. So since I can't put it back, I use it a lot. It is great stuff.

 

[emeraldking]

I have a 40B with some legacy domestic guppies and swordtails. The tap water is approx gh 6 (tds 120). I'd like to transition this tank to blackwater for some interesting dwarf cichild to fill in the bottom. Will the poor reminants of guppeis and swordtails i have survive the transitiion @emeraldking ?

If you would let them get used to it gradually, it should work. This is expereince talking overhere. I also keep swordtails outdoors. And some outdoor tubs, a lot of leaves are in there and it's full of tannins. If have them also near to Gh of 6°dH. And I'm talking about wild swordtail species at the moment. But before I also kept breeding forms of swordtails at those rates (but only outdoors). Indoors they are kept at higher rates. But my swordtails were introduced as juveniles in spring and were harvested in fall. They got used to all weather and temperature fluctuations. And got used to softer water which they also reproduced in.
If you would just introduce them as adults in softer water, I can assure you that you'll be facing problems.
Short finned guppies however can be kept in softer water but large finned guppies won't be that happy in there.

 

[anewbie]

If you would let them get used to it gradually, it should work. This is expereince talking overhere. I also keep swordtails outdoors. And some outdoor tubs, a lot of leaves are in there and it's full of tannins. If have them also near to Gh of 6°dH. And I'm talking about wild swordtail species at the moment. But before I also kept breeding forms of swordtails at those rates (but only outdoors). Indoors they are kept at higher rates. But my swordtails were introduced as juveniles in spring and were harvested in fall. They got used to all weather and temperature fluctuations. And got used to softer water which they also reproduced in.
If you would just introduce them as adults in softer water, I can assure you that you'll be facing problems.
Short finned guppies however can be kept in softer water but large finned guppies won't be that happy in there.

Just want to confirm i will be going from tds ~130 to tds ~15; I do have frys in there as well as various adults. Only one male has a large fancy tail. I can move some of them over to the 120 but if you think they will transition i prefer to leave them. My plan is to do 50% water changes with ro water over four weeks and then on week 5 a 75% water change to push the tds lower. THe fish i plan on adding leans to clear water so it doesn't have to actually get down to ec 30 but certainly ec 50 would be prefer (note i transition from tds to ec).

 

[anewbie]

Well - over the past couple of months all the guppies died off but the swordtails seem to be doing quite well.

 

[emeraldking]

Well - over the past couple of months all the guppies died off but the swordtails seem to be doing quite well.

Just like I've said before...
Large finned guppies won't do well for long in softer water. Short finned guppies however are more tolerant.
There's a fair range of wild livebearers that occur in softer water. The hard water demand for livebearers is just a general remark.

 

[anewbie]

Just like I've said before...
Large finned guppies won't do well for long in softer water. Short finned guppies however are more tolerant.
There's a fair range of wild livebearers that occur in softer water. The hard water demand for livebearers is just a general remark.

I'm not going to argue you but rather report my findings. Also i don't care about all species of live bearers just domestic guppies and swordtails. 'Larged fin' is of course relative they were not super fancy guppies with overflowing large fins. Many had reverted to more colourless form with relatively short fins over the years so my finding is that guppies even with relatively short fins (but not wc guppies); do not do well in blackwater. The swordtails are of course doing quite well and the frys are rapidly growing. Long term there might be impact on the swordtails but i won't know that till further out - think - probably years. I'll probably find a new home for the adults but i'm not about to spend years chasing the frys down.

 

[emeraldking]

I'm not going to argue you but rather report my findings. Also i don't care about all species of live bearers just domestic guppies and swordtails. 'Larged fin' is of course relative they were not super fancy guppies with overflowing large fins. Many had reverted to more colourless form with relatively short fins over the years so my finding is that guppies even with relatively short fins (but not wc guppies); do not do well in blackwater. The swordtails are of course doing quite well and the frys are rapidly growing. Long term there might be impact on the swordtails but i won't know that till further out - think - probably years. I'll probably find a new home for the adults but i'm not about to spend years chasing the frys down.

For sure everyone has got their own experiences. No doubts on that. Your guppies could have been not that strong. I've got some blackwater tanks and in there are short finned guppies and they're doing well for years. But again, I won't argue you experience either. For I do believe that you've experienced it differently.
It's a fact that large finned guppies are vulnerable in soft water. Short finned breeding forms are even more tolerant than large finned guppies. So, they can be kept in soft water longer than large finned breeding forms. But that doesn't mean that short finned breeding forms will have a long lifespan. Like I've said: They're more tolerant. Which already says that there might be a limit in their tolerance depending on the margins of the fluctuations in the water parameters.
Even a fair part of wild guppies occur also in softer water.

 

[anewbie]

For sure everyone has got their own experiences. No doubts on that. Your guppies could have been not that strong. I've got some blackwater tanks and in there are short finned guppies and they're doing well for years. But again, I won't argue you experience either. For I do believe that you've experienced it differently.
It's a fact that large finned guppies are vulnerable in soft water. Short finned breeding forms are even more tolerant than large finned guppies. So, they can be kept in soft water longer than large finned breeding forms. But that doesn't mean that short finned breeding forms will have a long lifespan. Like I've said: They're more tolerant. Which already says that there might be a limit in their tolerance depending on the margins of the fluctuations in the water parameters.
Even a fair part of wild guppies occur also in softer water.

I would for sure say the ones i had were genetically weak - very weak with high turn over even before moving to blackwater. I'm not particularly sad to be rid of them - i do wish they had a better ending but it is what it is. I would not object if the swordtails passed because it would save me a huge effort trying to catch them.

One thing i will note about the guppies is at least ones i have did not take that many generations to fall apart. Which is really a commentary on their genetic makeup that are being sold. The ones we had as kids - which was a long long time ago were completely different - they were the type with only a little colour on the male - the females did not look that much different than todays females - but the males were much smaller and not as colourful but they were very solid as long as your brother didn't feed them toothpaste.

 

[emeraldking]

One thing i will note about the guppies is at least ones i have did not take that many generations to fall apart. Which is really a commentary on their genetic makeup that are being sold. The ones we had as kids - which was a long long time ago were completely different - they were the type with only a little colour on the male - the females did not look that much different than todays females - but the males were much smaller and not as colourful but they were very solid as long as your brother didn't feed them toothpaste.

Nowadays commercial bred guppies are bred in mass production at Asian fish farms. There's hardly till none selection in quality. To ensure the demand of the commercial market, it's more of importance to breed the strain in high numbers and sell them all than taking part in quality process. The aquatic market has grown over the years. Which is associated with fast delivery. The sold fish are younger than they look like. They are raised in a high pace which also leads to a shorter lifespan and overall weakness. A couple of months old looking guppy can be just about 6-8 weeks old. This way, the Asian fish farms can provide wholesalers continuously. It's a way of production a lot of Asian fish farms handle. Guppies from Israel, Poland or the Czech republic are also producing in mass but there's more quality control present.

Yes, the guppies from the old'n days were much stronger. But the aquatic market of ornamental fishes wasn't as big as it is right now.

When I was a young boy, a cousin of mine turned the heater of our fishtank on its max while his parents and siblings were staying at our place for the weekend. The next day, most fish were floating dead at the surface. My parents and his were furious. He told them that he was just curious what would happen if he turned it up.