Can An Unfiltered Container Still Cycle?

[LaVidaBoring]

So, I've been keeping my betta in an unfiltered but heated 2.5 gallon tank for about the last month.

Yeah, I bought the fish first and the small tank intending to keep him in the unfiltered tank indefinitely, then started reading more about bettas online, felt guilty, went out and bought a 5 gall tank that I'm now cycling fishlessly.

But, in the meantime, the betta is still in the unfiltered tank. One of the things I bought a couple weeks after getting the fish was a freshwater test kit. I started changing all of the water in the unfiltered 2.5 gall container every 2 days after I discovered that on the second day after a water change, the ammonia levels were going up to .25 ppm.

Then, the last two times I went to change the water on the second day, including yesterday, I tested the water first for ammonia. And ONLY ammonia. It came up zero. Great, I thought, maybe I can change the water every three days now instead of every second day.

Well, this morning was the third day, and I noticed my betta was acting a bit listless and breathing at the surface more than he normally does. I tested for ammonia--came up zero again. Then, on a whim, I tested for nitrite. It came up at 1PPM! I freaked and changed the water right then, and he perked up after being put into clean water.

But how did I get nitrites in an unfiltered container? I tested my tap water and it comes up zero for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates right out of the tap. I do have two rocks that I've been putting in with the betta in the unfiltered tank, one of them being a porous sandstone. Could nitrifying bacteria have started to grow on the sandstone? How else do I explain no ammonia and yet detectable nitrites? And nitrates too, actually (5 ppm)?

Also, the betta seems to be acting just fine now, but is there any chance that being in a 1PPM nitrite concentration has permanently damaged him?

 

[Katty]

Quite simply, the nitrifying bacteria are growing all over the tank. The walls, the decorations, the gravel, anything in there. The tank is cycling without a filter. Filters just make the process more efficient by moving all of the water through one spot, where the bacteria are sure to get lots of access to food.

If he seems to be fine now, I think he will be ok.

 

[JoshuaA]

Nitrifying bacteria adhere to surfaces, specifically your filter media. In your case not having filter media the highest concentration will be in your gravel or on any surfaces in the tank.

Ornaments, glass, substrate, fake plants etc.

They won't be that effective compared to being in an filter but they will be present. Depending on how long you have had that Betta in the tank could quite possibly mean you have actually already cycled the tank without realising it however putting the fish through some poor conditions.

The 1ppm Nitrite concentration I believe is likely not have permanently damaged him at the moment, however previously before you were aware of the nitrogen cycle he could of easily been exposed to high concentrations of ammonia and possibly damaging concentrations.

However due to the small size tank I believe your best bet will be doing an almost total water change each day until you can introduce him into your newly cycled tank.

The water changes might stress him a bit but will help prevent him being exposed to toxic levels. Since your tank is such a small size it would be pretty easy to empty it out totally and refill it. Make sure you match the temperatures though so you don't shock the fish.

I hear a lot of people who use quarantine "tanks" do this method of not filtering their tanks and only providing a few hiding places to calm the fish. Then each day or twice day they completely change the water. Thus meaning they don't need to constantly maintain a tank/filter ready for quarantining fish.

 

[LaVidaBoring]

The 1ppm Nitrite concentration I believe is likely not have permanently damaged him at the moment, however previously before you were aware of the nitrogen cycle he could of easily been exposed to high concentrations of ammonia and possibly damaging concentrations.

I rather doubt that, just because I've been carefully monitoring his behavior since I got him, and he never showed any of the behaviors associated with ammonia poisoning. I've had him over a month now with and he's had no signs of illness or fin rot or anything that I've read typically goes with overexposure to toxic chemicals...not yet (knock on wood). I purchased the freshwater test kit about the week after I got him to start testing for ammonia. That's how I found out that I get detectable ammonia every second day (until recently, that is). I doubt he's been exposed to ammonia levels higher than .25 ppm, although he may have spent a few days (cumulatively but not consecutively) in a concentration that high until I started changing his water every two days instead of twice a week.

I'm going to avoid doing a full water change every day if I can help it, just because I think it does stress him out a bit. He never tries to make any bubble nests the day of a water change, but always does on the day *after* a water change. And also, I've torn his fins twice now with trying to get him into my net to get him out of the water, so I'd prefer to minimize my chasing him to get him in and out of temp containers while I do the water changes. Thank goodness, the first set of tiny rips healed, but last time I did the wc, he got a tiny hole in his dorsal fin, poor guy.

Anyway, I will definitely monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrates every single day from now on and have another container with heated and treated water container ready to go. Yes, I actually bought an extra heater just for this. I'm such a sucker for this fish, lol! He is very pretty and has a nice personality, though, so I'm rather attached to him now. I definitely want him to live as long a life as I can give him.

I always make sure the new water I put him into is the same temp and pH as the old water. I do the "floating bag" thing to help acclimate him to the new water as well.

 

[LaVidaBoring]

Quite simply, the nitrifying bacteria are growing all over the tank. The walls, the decorations, the gravel, anything in there. The tank is cycling without a filter. Filters just make the process more efficient by moving all of the water through one spot, where the bacteria are sure to get lots of access to food.

I thought the bacteria also needed a constant oxygen source too, though, which is why they grew in filter media. Well, maybe with frequent enough water changes, that gives them enough oxygen? Hmm.

Thanks to you and the other poster for the replies and advice.

 

[Katty]

That's true. Bettas have the labyrinth organ though so they aren't as demanding on the dissolved oxygen, which may have played a part in it. In any case, the amount of oxygen in your tank was sufficient.

But then again, there are undergravel filters which aren't really doing anything for the oxygen, but house a bit of bacteria. Maybe not as much as an upper level filter because of that oxygen dilemma though.

 

[JoshuaA]

I thought the bacteria also needed a constant oxygen source too, though, which is why they grew in filter media. Well, maybe with frequent enough water changes, that gives them enough oxygen? Hmm.

Thanks to you and the other poster for the replies and advice.

Oxygen is introduced into the tank usually solely by surface agitation or fortunately for the case of your betta by having a gland which allows it to breathe from the surface. Water changes will likely introduce more dissolved carbon dioxide than oxygen. It will equalise anyway within a few hours most likely.

I'm going to avoid doing a full water change every day if I can help it, just because I think it does stress him out a bit

Personally I think you're taking the wrong route on that, the "stress" isn't really present as long as you have proper netting technique. You can always use the polythene bags you are using for water changes by placing it in the tank and herding him in preventing any tearing to his fins. I also don't see why you can't just take the water level down to the minimum required for him to swim in and then fill it back up. THat would usually be a 90% change.

The aim of the water changes is to remove as much of the Ammonia/Nitrite as possible and prevent any further damage. Even small concentrations won't be the best and I'm sure with proper water changing techniques your fish would be much happier in fresh water rather than poor quality water.

But then again, there are undergravel filters which aren't really doing anything for the oxygen, but house a bit of bacteria. Maybe not as much as an upper level filter because of that oxygen dilemma though.

Under gravel filters use the gravel as a media for bacteria creating a flow of water over the gravel not suitable for planted aquariums. The water then goes up the cylindrical tubes you associate with Gravel filters and is usually filtered again through a sponge. The jet of water coming out of the top usually creates surface agitation introducing oxygen into the system.

I doubt he's been exposed to ammonia levels higher than .25 ppm

0.25 is still too high a concentration for your Betta, they may be slightly hardier than your average fish but you really need to make sure that it is as close to 0 as possible. The answer is water changes and leaving the fish knowingly in readable levels of ammonia is somewhat irresponsible.

Having your fish exposed to ammonia every other day will probably in the end cause permanent damage which will lessen its life span.

It may seem very frustrating and annoying to have to water change every day but believe me you will feel better in yourself knowing that you have done as much as possible to prevent any health issues.

Finally you can purchase a water conditioner such as Seachem Prime (recommended) or the API Conditioner which neutralises the Ammonia into less toxic form as well as neutralising Nitrite.

 

[LaVidaBoring]

Personally I think you're taking the wrong route on that, the "stress" isn't really present as long as you have proper netting technique. You can always use the polythene bags you are using for water changes by placing it in the tank and herding him in preventing any tearing to his fins. I also don't see why you can't just take the water level down to the minimum required for him to swim in and then fill it back up. THat would usually be a 90% change.

Well, yeah, I guess I could do that. I'll miss seeing him make bubbles, though.

The aim of the water changes is to remove as much of the Ammonia/Nitrite as possible and prevent any further damage. Even small concentrations won't be the best and I'm sure with proper water changing techniques your fish would be much happier in fresh water rather than poor quality water.

0.25 is still too high a concentration for your Betta, they may be slightly hardier than your average fish but you really need to make sure that it is as close to 0 as possible. The answer is water changes and leaving the fish knowingly in readable levels of ammonia is somewhat irresponsible.

I only realized that there was an ammonia reading when I started testing his water. Since I started doing the every-other-day changes, the ammonia reading had been coming up very *very* slightly (going by the color of the reagent + water in the test tube) but was definitely less than .25 on the second day. Until the last two water cycles, that is, when the ammonia reading came up at zero even on the second and third days.

I didn't leave him in the .25 ppm ammonia water once I realized that ammonia was building up.

Having your fish exposed to ammonia every other day will probably in the end cause permanent damage which will lessen its life span.

It may seem very frustrating and annoying to have to water change every day but believe me you will feel better in yourself knowing that you have done as much as possible to prevent any health issues.

But if he's making bubble nests only on the second day, doesn't that mean he's happy? Do they still make bubble nests in poor water conditions?

Finally you can purchase a water conditioner such as Seachem Prime (recommended) or the API Conditioner which neutralises the Ammonia into less toxic form as well as neutralising Nitrite.

I already use something like that (Amquel+). I also add "pH Down" to my tap water to get the pH to 7.0, because my tap water is extremely alkaline (pH of 8.0 right out of the tap). I had read that ammonia is much less toxic at lower pH levels, although I know the opposite is true for nitrites, which is why seeing that 1.0 ppm reading scared the heck out of me.

Also, while I know Amquel+, Prime, etc. supposedly neutralize nitrite and ammonia, I have also read online some people's opinions that that isn't really true. Or that they may partially neutralize these chemicals, but not completely.

 

[JoshuaA]

A quick one, you should check the pH of your water after 24 hours without adding anything. Relying on pH down and other products isn't the best solution.

Prime neutralises the Ammonia into Ammonium it is still detectable by test kits however. Ammonium is created over Ammonia if the pH is below 7.

With the bubble nests, you can gently scoop them out with a cup and replace them after a water change, it isn't going to annoy him so much if you do destroy it by water changing after all he will just make a new one!

Remember though, its about his welfare not just your enjoyment of watching him make them. It will be best to keep changing the water daily until the cycle has ran its course. Or until your other tank is ready to accept him!

 

[BethK]

Wouldn't bother about replacing the bubble nest, he doesn't need it and by moving them, you have destroyed them in his eyes and he will get rid of the nest himself (not something you want if you intend to breed).

You need a filter, bettas are tropical and need the oxygen flow throughout the water. You can not cycle a tank without a filter, fullstop. If you have no filter, you'd need to do a 50% water change on a daily basis and your betta's lifespan would most probably be halved due to this.

 

[JoshuaA]

Wouldn't bother about replacing the bubble nest, he doesn't need it and by moving them, you have destroyed them in his eyes and he will get rid of the nest himself (not something you want if you intend to breed).

You need a filter, bettas are tropical and need the oxygen flow throughout the water. You can not cycle a tank without a filter, fullstop. If you have no filter, you'd need to do a 50% water change on a daily basis and your betta's lifespan would most probably be halved due to this.

Listen to her, she knows her stuff, specifically about Bettas.

 

[BethK]

Sorry,meant to say that your betta's life expectancy will increase,with a filter. Once you have a cycled tank, change 40% of the water every 5 days.

By adding a filter and a bigger home, your betta's quality of life will have been made better

 

[LaVidaBoring]

Sorry,meant to say that your betta's life expectancy will increase,with a filter. Once you have a cycled tank, change 40% of the water every 5 days.

By adding a filter and a bigger home, your betta's quality of life will have been made better

Shouldn't the amount of nitrates and other chemicals in the water determine how much of the water I change and how often? Other posters on a different board recommend doing a 25% water change weekly, not a 40% water change every five days. Forgive me for being contrary, but it seems as though many betta keepers have their own opinions about how much to change and when.

Maybe I will start doing the 50% water changes daily, though, while he's still in the unfiltered 2.5 gallon container. That seems like it would be less stressful for the fish than changing out 90% to 100% of his water every single day. Someone on another forum did say that she kept a betta for 3 years in a 2 gallon bowl and changed his water every other day, so my current change schedule can't be THAT awful for the fish.

I certainly want to move him to the filtered tank, but it's taking *forever* to cycle. I've been running it for just under a month now, having put in plants and also having used NutraFin Cycle and then Nitromax bacterial supplements. I think I had been using too much ammonia. At the start I had over 5ppm ammonia. The ammonia level did end up coming down quite low, but I think I was then adding too much back in, taking back up to 2-4ppm each time I added more. I kept getting huge nitrite and nitrate readings without my nitrites ever coming down. Finally I did a bunch of water changes and I got the levels down low on the nitrites and nitrates, but they both went huge again when I added enough ammonia to get the water up to 2ppm ammonia. So now my ammonia reliably goes back to 0ppm within a day of me adding enough to get to 2ppm, but I have never seen my nitrite levels come down on their own without me doing a bunch of water changes first.

I'm going to not add ammonia or do any water changes for two days and see if my nitrites decrease. I must have a ton of ammonia-consuming bacteria and a much smaller quantity of the nitrite-consuming bacteria.

As far as using the pH down goes, I know a lot of people out there have lots of opinions on this too. But considering how high the pH of my tap water is, I'd rather neutralize it somewhat than force my betta to adapt to it, especially when bettas prefer slightly acidic conditions from what I've read. The pH down stuff is sulfuric acid, though, and not to be trifled with. I was adding some to the tank while wearing my favorite nightshirt and it splashed back up onto my nightshirt. Well, bye bye nightshirt....got some huge holes in it. I poured the acid into a dropper bottle, so I just add a few drops at a time to the water. No more splashing that way either. I keep testing the pH until it goes down to 7. Takes about 1/8 to 1/4 tsp for 2.5 gallons. And yes, I add the stuff to the water before the betta goes in.

 

[LaVidaBoring]

A quick one, you should check the pH of your water after 24 hours without adding anything.

Tried that. pH stays in the high 7.x range even letting water sit out overnight uncovered.

 

[JoshuaA]

Ok a few points to make...

Don't stop dosing your cycling tank with ammonia, if you do that you will likely slowly kill of a lot of bacteria. Stick with the method we all know works rather than making a new one on a whim. A way to see if our Nitrite is dropping is way until about 20 days or so and then do a 100% water change and re dose. Test the next day for Nitrite, then test for nitrite a few hours later and see if there is any difference. This is what I did to detect whether I had big population of Nitrospira bacteria.

It seems like you're mind is set on what you want to do and I don't see any point further discussing water changes as you are siding with advice found elsewhere. Changing 50% of your water at a 0.25 concentration will end up with 0.125 concentration. This is still too much, you REALLY want it to be as close to 0 as possible for the fishes health.

I don't understand why someone wouldn't bother buying a filter after 3 years, it sounds like a lazy mans excuse and perhaps someone you shouldn't take advice from. Why wouldn't they just buy a £5 filter and have it done with an drop their water changes down to once a week.

Your fish however can adapt to high and low pH's very easily and over time your Betta would be able to adapt to the pH of your normal tap water and your fish would prefer a much more stable pH than you having to artificially adjust it.

Furthermore for your fish-less cycle...

Dose 4ppm of Ammonia every 24 hours if on your test it shows 0ppm of Ammonia.

You want to have a high pH of around 8-8.4 for optimal bacterial growth with a temperature of about 26-29.

Just under a month is not long for a fish-less cycle mine took about 40 days, and I had mature media donated to me.

Bacterial supplements won't help ESPECIALLY Nutrafin Cycle, if anything that appears to be counter productive.

Do a complete water change every week or so to decrease the amount of Nitrite. Eventually your Nitrite will keep up with your Ammonia bacteria. Nitrite bacteria takes twice as long.


Finally, Beth recommends that based on a lot of experience and in a 2.5 gallon tank what's the difference is it to you between 25% and 50%~ It's a 2.5 gallon tank it will take maybe an extra 2 minutes to remove and add that extra water. It will be better in the long run. This however is assuming you have a filter currently which you don't.

I still recommend you removing nearly around 90% of your water DAILY until you have either your new tank cycled or your current tank able to cope with the load (bacteria in gravel).

I don't want to come across as hostile, however I feel like you're trying to avoid the increased "workload" some additional water changes present. Like I have said before, it's about your fishes welfare. Would you want to live in a warm soup of your own poop for long?