Bright Water Tank syndrome ( extension to water change thread.....)

[kwi]

So are you saying we shouldn't use tap water? At all?

What about RO water? Doesn't that come from tap source? (And the hassle of adding minerals.)

How do we know if next doors fire has affected our collected rainwater?

What about river/streams, is there something dead upstream? What about Old McDonald disposing of some out of date pesticides and not wanting to pay for proper disposal? (I have a container of strychnine which to get rid of is going to cost me over £400)

If we don't do large water changes how do the micronutrients/minerals consumed by fish and bacteria get replenished?

The truth of the matter is the only source that Joe Bloggs can access water analysis reports on is their tap water, mine is here. If you can understand it you can see it's not as bright as you fear.

And bringing peoples faith into it is a bit churlish..............

 

[itiwhetu]

So are you saying we shouldn't use tap water? At all?

What about RO water? Doesn't that come from tap source? (And the hassle of adding minerals.)

How do we know if next doors fire has affected our collected rainwater?

What about river/streams, is there something dead upstream? What about Old McDonald disposing of some out of date pesticides and not wanting to pay for proper disposal? (I have a container of strychnine which to get rid of is going to cost me over £400)

If we don't do large water changes how do the micronutrients/minerals consumed by fish and bacteria get replenished?

The truth of the matter is the only source that Joe Bloggs can access water analysis reports on is their tap water, mine is here. If you can understand it you can see it's not as bright as you fear.

And bringing peoples faith into it is a bit churlish..............

No, Use tap water it is all good. I never said anything about tap water being bad. I was asking the question if large regular water changes with tap water was safe. Please re read what I was saying

 

[kwi]

No, Use tap water it is all good. I never said anything about tap water being bad. I was asking the question if large regular water changes with tap water was safe. Please re read what I was saying

Well as the tank was initially filled with tap water, and was safe then, why wouldn't it be, if a regular occourance?

Once a year however......OTS

 

[itiwhetu]

Well as the tank was initially filled with tap water, and was safe then, why wouldn't it be?

Good point. What we do is cycle that water and age it. Then we start adding new water to the aged water. The question is the volume of that new water

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Good point. What we do is cycle that water and age it. Then we start adding new water to the aged water. The question is the volume of that new water

What do you mean, specifically, when you say we 'cycle that water'?

 

[itiwhetu]

What do you mean, specifically, when you say we 'cycle that water'?

You put fresh water in a tank then cycle the tank. The water is part of that process

 

[kwi]

But we don't age the water, we grow bacteria on the hard surfaces. Fishless cycle recomends a very large water change before adding stock, so fresh source water.

The idea behind large water changes is that the water doesn't "age", so our source water is always "safe".

I would love links to these discussions on BWTS (With moderator permission of course.)

 

[itiwhetu]

But we don't age the water, we grow bacteria on the hard surfaces. Fishless cycle recomends a very large water change before adding stock, so fresh source water.

The idea behind large water changes is that the water doesn't "age", so our source water is always "safe".

I would love links to these discussions on BWTS (With moderator permission of course.)

So the water has no part in the cycling of a tank. Interesting

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

You put fresh water in a tank then cycle the tank. The water is part of that process

Except that 'the cycle' that we talk about is the nitrogen cycle. Specifically about growing the two types of bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites into nitrates. Those bacteria don't live in the water itself, but attached to hard surfaces. The water merely carries the bacteria's food source - fish waste, and any water can do that that, whether it's old tank water or freshly added after a 100% water change even. The bacteria involved in the cycle do not live in the water.

It's comments like these that Illuminate the fact you don't understand the nitrogen cycle, and that lack of understanding fuels your fear and mistrust of water changes.

 

[itiwhetu]

Except that 'the cycle' that we talk about is the nitrogen cycle. Specifically about growing the two types of bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites into nitrates. Those bacteria don't live in the water itself, but attached to hard surfaces. The water merely carries the bacteria's food source - fish waste, and any water can do that that, whether it's old tank water or freshly added after a 100% water change even. The bacteria involved in the cycle do not live in the water.

It's comments like these that Illuminate the fact you don't understand the nitrogen cycle, and that lack of understanding fuels your fear and mistrust of water changes.

I'm starting to understand now that the bacteria in an aquarium doesn't live in water. I am sorry I have never thought of that. It must be old age and old ways and I am pleased that I have learnt something

 

[kwi]

So the water has no part in the cycling of a tank. Interesting

Now you're just being facetious.

I have changed my thinking from 20years ago and have learnt new stuff and looked at the actual reasoning behind how the hobby has changed, by open thinking outside of the box, shame you can't.

 

[mbsqw1d]

I have a 'gut feeling' that doing a large water change, as quickly as we do, could have a negative impact on the fish, purely because we are making a fairly drastic change to their environment. Why do we go to the trouble of drip acclimatising new fish, when we're just as happy to change 75% of their water? The water change is important, for many reasons already mentioned (although I haven't noticed removal of nitrates.. thats just a given is suppose). The way around this would be to perform the large water change over a longer period of time, (a bit like drip acclimatising new fish), the problem is, how long is this going to take on a 50+ gallon tank, all day? Several days? The best solution is probably little and often, but still enough that is going to remove the nitrate build-up. However, for anyone with large or multiple tanks, the hobby is quickly going to become a nightmarish job.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'm starting to understand now that the bacteria in an aquarium doesn't live in water. I am sorry I have nver thought of that. It must be old age and old ways and I am pleased that I have learnt something

It's always possible to learn new things, and it's good to see you accept that!

Advances in science furthers our understanding. It can be hard to keep up with, my parents were in the aquatics business 40-50 years ago, and also had a lot of the same things taught to them, things we understand better now thanks to laboratory testing.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I have a 'gut feeling' that doing a large water change, as quickly as we do, could have a negative impact on the fish, purely because we are making a fairly drastic change to their environment. Why do we go to the trouble of drip acclimatising new fish, when we're just as happy to change 75% of their water? The water change is important, for many reasons already mentioned (although I haven't noticed removal of nitrates.. thats just a given is suppose). The way around this would be to perform the large water change over a longer period of time, (a bit like drip acclimatising new fish), the problem is, how long is this going to take on a 50+ gallon tank, all day? Several days? The best solution is probably little and often, but still enough that is going to remove the nitrate build-up. However, for anyone with large or multiple tanks, the hobby is quickly going to become a nightmarish job.

Plenty of people have decided that drip acclimating is also pointless, since it takes weeks for a fish to adjust to a different pH, GH, etc, and merely to float the bag to temp acclimate before adding the fish.

But personally I drip acclimate a new fish or shrimp because I assume my water is likely to be slightly different that the shop water, so I'm acclimating them to my water, while when I water change a tank, I'm changing my tank water from the same source water. I've already temp matched, and the source water has the same GH, pH etc as the tank.

 

[seangee]

1. If your tap water is safe for drinking it is safe for fish and will not cause any so called bright tank syndrome as described.
2. Chlorine is never safe for fish - even in small quantities. Adding 10% water without dechlorination is still bad. Just use dechlorinator or carbon block filtration. The old school way of leaving the water to "age" only works if the water is treated with free chlorine. If the water is treated with chloramine this will not "age" out - so use dechlorinator.
3. It may not be suitable for your fish - if you keep soft water fish and have hard water (or vice versa), but this is just unsuitable water, not bright tank syndrome.
4. In the EU (and I assume many countries are similar) the permissable nitrate level is 50ppm. This is not suitable for fish but also does not cause bright tank syndrome. In fact the opposite applies and old tank syndrome (fatal levels of nitrates) will happen much sooner if you do not perform regular large water changes. I am not recommending you use water that contains 50ppm nitrates - but we have to acknowlege that many people do.

I do not have any validated scientific evidence (because I have never looked for any) that regular large water changes are better or worse than small infrequent changes. I do have anecdotal evidence that regular large water changes do no harm. I change 75% of the water in all my tanks every week and have never experienced a "help my fish are dying / lethargic / floating / not eating and I don't know why" episode. I have also not seen such posts from people who I know to do the same.

I also know that my overall mortality rate is lower and my fish live significantly longer since I have started doing this. From a scientific perspective this is not proof as I also used unsuitable water (high nitrates and hard water for my soft water fish) when I was only doing 10-25% weekly changes. But there is further anecdotal evidence in how many experienced fish keepers offer "do a large water change" as the first advice when people do post about health issues, and how often that treatment turns out to be effective.