Bogwood Poisoning

[raptorrex]

@bignose, would boiling the wood, apart from breaking down the fibre, actually cause any problemswhen it is but in the tank? the reason i ask is. many of the members asking this kind of question are new or inexperienced, if boiling a bit of wood would help them feel safer about the addition, and would cause no real harm, would it be fair to say. "you dont need to do this, but if you wish, that's ok"!

 

[The-Wolf]

the only benifit of boiling bogwood, or any other wood for that matter,
is to expand it somewhat to release tannins quicker than it would normally release them.

that is for those that don't want/need or understand what tannins are or how beneficial they can be to certain biotpoes

 

[angel-al]

in that case does anyone think the wood could have killed the fish

Or does any one have any evidence of parasites living in the wood

Or if she put a different wood in, that looked like bogwood but wasnt - what kind of wood is it likely to be and is it likely that this wood would actually be on sale in an aquatic shop

 

[raptorrex]

in that case does anyone think the wood could have killed the fish

Or does any one have any evidence of parasites living in the wood

Or if she put a different wood in, that looked like bogwood but wasnt - what kind of wood is it likely to be and is it likely that this wood would actually be on sale in an aquatic shop

it seem possible that it may have, but it is impossible to say without testing the wood, even then the cost would make it not worth while. imo

 

[Bignose]

@bignose, would boiling the wood, apart from breaking down the fibre, actually cause any problemswhen it is but in the tank? the reason i ask is. many of the members asking this kind of question are new or inexperienced, if boiling a bit of wood would help them feel safer about the addition, and would cause no real harm, would it be fair to say. "you dont need to do this, but if you wish, that's ok"!

bobo, you can always do whatever you want if you live in a free country. You can do 100 jumping jacks before you put the wood in, but that won't make it any safer. You can sing showtunes to your fish when you feed them, but that won't make them healthier. You can run around the outside of your house in your underpants with your buckets of water you use to do water changes with, but that won't make the water any better.

Like I said, you can do anything you want. If it makes you feel better, then ok, I don't care either way. But, the point is that it doesn't actually do anything to make the fish healthier or safer, so it is completely unnecessary. Just like singing to the fish or running around the house with buckets of water.

The real issue comes when people start connecting these lines of cause and effect. If I told you that the wood was safer because I did 100 jumping jacks, then there is a problem. Or if I told you the fish were healthier because i sang to them or the water was better because I ran around the house with it. Then there is a problem. In the same way, saying that the wood is better because it was boiled isn't right either. The reason given to boil water is to kill parasites -- but if there aren't any parasites in the first place -- then there needs to be another reason why boiling is needed. Otherwise, it is just another ritual/"magic words" things that maybe indeed does make you feel better, but isn't necessary.

 

[raptorrex]

@bignose, would boiling the wood, apart from breaking down the fibre, actually cause any problemswhen it is but in the tank? the reason i ask is. many of the members asking this kind of question are new or inexperienced, if boiling a bit of wood would help them feel safer about the addition, and would cause no real harm, would it be fair to say. "you dont need to do this, but if you wish, that's ok"!

bobo, you can always do whatever you want if you live in a free country. You can do 100 jumping jacks before you put the wood in, but that won't make it any safer. You can sing showtunes to your fish when you feed them, but that won't make them healthier. You can run around the outside of your house in your underpants with your buckets of water you use to do water changes with, but that won't make the water any better.

Like I said, you can do anything you want. If it makes you feel better, then ok, I don't care either way. But, the point is that it doesn't actually do anything to make the fish healthier or safer, so it is completely unnecessary. Just like singing to the fish or running around the house with buckets of water.

lol indeed so, that is my attitude to a tee. just checking there were no potential problems if you boil the thing.

 

[FeroX]

My fish are the healthiest and most proud of their country because I sing O' Canada every morning to them.

 

[angel-al]

So Im none the wiser despite all the comments. oh well

 

[raptorrex]

So Im none the wiser despite all the comments. oh well

no, that's true. but you will always get theories unless the same thing has happened to someone else. the way i see the thread is, whilst it is possible that the wood caused the problem, it is unlikely. if it were a known problem, i would expect others to have suffered.

 

[WILDER]

Good god you try to help someone get shot down just because you tell someone to steralise the wood for parasites.
Its says in articles make sure there no parasites in the wood, I don't know what parasites they mean.
I steralise most things before I add it to a tank just to be on the safe side.
They says it best to soak the wood that been in the lfs just to make sure there no chemical on it.
[URL="http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood"]http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood[/URL]
Taken from the link.
Do not simply dunk the wood into your tank. Your piece of wood has probably been sitting on a shelf in the shop for a long time. It may have collected chemical sprays from the air and often will be coated with dust.

 

[Chrispixx]

In the same way, saying that the wood is better because it was boiled isn't right either. The reason given to boil water is to kill parasites -- but if there aren't any parasites in the first place -- then there needs to be another reason why boiling is needed. Otherwise, it is just another ritual/"magic words" things that maybe indeed does make you feel better, but isn't necessary.

I disagree with this.. boiling may not be necessary but it sure wont hurt, especially if the wood comes direct from a lake, river etc. you never know what is living on/in it. Boiling will also leech tannins faster so that is a bonus if you are not after that look.

boiling big wood is a problem,but anything that can fit in a big enough pot could be boiled. i boiled my piece thats in my five gallon, it seems like the safe thing to do. Remember we are careful and try to use stuff that has not been used with any cleaners/chemicals, stuff like our buckets, brushes etc, the things we use for tank maintenance. So why not boil something that will go in with our fishes.

Getting back to the wood in question that supposedly killed all the fish, the fact that it never leeched tannins and is supposed to be bogwood makes me suspicious. As was said earlier maybe it was not suited for a tank, or had sap in it that was toxic. I'm betting that some chemical got on it somewhere, perhaps in the store.

 

[Bignose]

Good god you try to help someone get shot down just because you tell someone to steralise the wood for parasites.
Its says in articles make sure there no parasites in the wood, I don't know what parasites they mean.
I steralise most things before I add it to a tank just to be on the safe side.
They says it best to soak the wood that been in the lfs just to make sure there no chemical on it.
<a href="http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood" target="_blank">http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood</a>
Taken from the link.
Do not simply dunk the wood into your tank. Your piece of wood has probably been sitting on a shelf in the shop for a long time. It may have collected chemical sprays from the air and often will be coated with dust.

Good god you try to tell someone that dry wood, wood that has by your own story been sitting on a shelf for a long time, cannot contain fish parasites that would require an aquatic environment, and you get grumped at just because you correct some misinformation.

Wilder, if you can cite any thing any where that shows evidence of aquatic parasites living through being dried out, or fish parasites that can live without having access to the fish, then I'm happy to stand corrected. But, the information that we know today just doesn't support what you are saying. Don't just lump them all together and say "parasites", please give me a few specific species.

Now, as to the different issue here -- that has nothing to do with parasites -- about dust and possible chemical spray residue on the shop. I can see where that may be possible. I personally doubt that it needs boiling water -- a quick rinse under the tap is probably sufficient to get the dust and any residue off. Most LFSs probably won't be using too much chemical spray anyway -- if it is bad for the fish when it gets on the wood in their shelves, it is definitely bad for the fish in the tanks in the LFS right then and there. But, I think that the possibility does exist on this point.

And that is the difference here -- I don't think that there is any possibility that any (to date unspecified) aquatic fish parasite is going to survive drying out and not having access to fish. There is at least a possibility that there is dust or residue on a decoration that has been sitting on a shelf for a long time.

 

[Bignose]

In the same way, saying that the wood is better because it was boiled isn't right either. The reason given to boil water is to kill parasites -- but if there aren't any parasites in the first place -- then there needs to be another reason why boiling is needed. Otherwise, it is just another ritual/"magic words" things that maybe indeed does make you feel better, but isn't necessary.

I disagree with this.. boiling may not be necessary but it sure wont hurt, especially if the wood comes direct from a lake, river etc. you never know what is living on/in it. Boiling will also leech tannins faster so that is a bonus if you are not after that look.

boiling big wood is a problem,but anything that can fit in a big enough pot could be boiled. i boiled my piece thats in my five gallon, it seems like the safe thing to do. Remember we are careful and try to use stuff that has not been used with any cleaners/chemicals, stuff like our buckets, brushes etc, the things we use for tank maintenance. So why not boil something that will go in with our fishes.

Getting back to the wood in question that supposedly killed all the fish, the fact that it never leeched tannins and is supposed to be bogwood makes me suspicious. As was said earlier maybe it was not suited for a tank, or had sap in it that was toxic. I'm betting that some chemical got on it somewhere, perhaps in the store.

But, if there aren't any parasites, then don't say that the boiling is to kill parasites. It is as simple as that. I am arguing against the advice that you boil the wood to "kill parasites" when there aren't any,

If you want to boil to clean it, to leach tannins, to make you feel better, fine. But, I am going to correct people if they say that they boil the wood to kill parasites when there aren't any, and no evidence has been shown specifying any parasite that survives drying out and not having access to fish.

Now, as for wood found outside, I personally only care about what kind of wood it is. I don't pull wood out of polluted rivers like the Mississippi or anything, but wood from a small local stream is fine. And, I've never had any problem not boiling it. In fact, I like it to still be a little wet (physically wet, not wet in terms of green or sap) because it is going to have some different bacteria and fungus on it than what is probably growing in the tank. And I want this to encourage biodiversity (see http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/measure.shtml for a good discussion of biodiversity). The chances of bringing something specifically harmful to me or fish is exceptionally small. Again, I make sure not to use potentially harmful wood -- black walnut for example is known to release toxins into the soil around it's base so I don't want to take a chance with that -- nor am I dumb about it -- I wouldn't take anything from a stream behind the rendering plant, for example. But, fish live in these streams and body of water -- if the water the wood or rock was in was so bad, then fish wouldn't be able to live in it either. And, it is the same argument about wood found on land -- without it being in water and having access to fish, what is on it that could be harmful to fish? Parasites that are harmful to fish need to have access to fish to continue their lifecycles -- if it was in the woods, it wasn't underwater and near fish so it isn't going to have a fish parasite on it.

Like I said above, if it makes you feel better to boil it, fine, then by all means. But, that doesn't mean that it is necessary. That doesn't mean that what you are doing is actually doing what you think it is doing. If there aren't parasites and toxins on the wood in the first place -- boiling it doesn't get rid of them any better than my magic woods again.

 

[andywg]

Good god you try to help someone get shot down just because you tell someone to steralise the wood for parasites.

No, you get people criticising your advice when it appears incorrect. Don't take it so personally.

Its says in articles make sure there no parasites in the wood, I don't know what parasites they mean.

Think about it logically, what aquatic parasites can survive drying out and having no fish to host on for an extended period? Do these articles say which parasites are going to cause problems?

I steralise most things before I add it to a tank just to be on the safe side.

That is your choice. If it works for you, great. Even suggesting to other s that you like to steralise isn't a problem. The issue is with saying that you must sterilise to kill parasites which just don't appear to exist.

They says it best to soak the wood that been in the lfs just to make sure there no chemical on it.
<a href="http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood" target="_blank">http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bogwood</a>
Taken from the link.

That is a wiki based site. Any person can post any random rubbish they like on there without any moderation.

Do not simply dunk the wood into your tank. Your piece of wood has probably been sitting on a shelf in the shop for a long time. It may have collected chemical sprays from the air and often will be coated with dust.

It may have done, and it may not have done. Suggesting people give it a rinse to make sure nothing bad is sitting on it is fine. Saying you have to boil the wood to kill parasites just appears to have no basis in fact.