Blue Rams Pale And Lifeless

[NeonTetra97]

Most of us have been suggesting possible issues.  Diagnosis of disease is very difficult at the best of times.  You ultimately have to decide what to do or not do...my only advice is to not jump into medications too readily.  I have in the past killed fish solely by using an inappropriate medication.  I now tend to use one as the last resort, unless the symptoms are pretty clear.
 
Keep an eye on the other fish.  If nothing further develops, then I would put this down to bullying by the male that seriously weakens a fish.  You mention cardinal tetra, shrimp...these are very sensitive creatures when it comes to any chemical/medication.

Thanks Byron, all seems good today luckily, also I have taken your advice to hold off on meds. A quick water change (50%) to remove as much of the ParaGaurd as possible. I will keep a very close eye on the situation but hopefully no more abnormalities occur.
 

I'm agreeing with Byron ... don't add any meds unless you see the stringy white poo (sorry, I should have made that clearer in my reply) You can get an anti-biotic but they are arn't easy to come by in the U.K. I used Waterlife's Octozin to treat Hex when I had it.
 
I'll make things a bit clearer as I've dealt with Hexamita in my own tank and so know a little about it.
 
Hex is caused by an excess build up of bacteria in the fishes gut. It is not a parasite. The bacteria in the fishes gut is there all the time - just like us humans - but it can build up excessively and this what is known as Hexamita. Extreem stress seems to be the cause and so by the fact that we know your male was being over amourous with your female I think it was possibly Hex that killed your female.
 
On to the signs: The first sign of Hex is stringy white poo. This will look like white sewing thread and they can be trailing a long line of it from their anus. If this goes untreated the fish will then become lethargic and start isolating itself. It will lose colouration in some cases (losing colour is also a sign of stress in fish) The final stage is loss of appetite ... once this happens it's unlikely that the fish will survive. 
It's difficult to say a timescale for Hex, sometimes all the above can happen over a few days but sometimes it takes longer but it is important to act before the fish loses it's need to feed.
 
Treating Hexamita: Add an anti-biotic - in the U.K this means a medication which can be hard to come by unless you visit a vet. Waterlife do a product which contains an anti-biotic. It is called Octozin. Alongside the anti-biotic make up a solution in a seperate container (never to be added to the tank) for this solution you will need half a litre of water (tap water is fine, no need for dechlorinator) and a tablespoon of epsom salt (magnesium sulphate) mix the water and salt well and add the fishes food to your net and dunk it into the solution then add the food to the tank. You will need to repeat this process twice a day for around a week to 10 days.
The solution works as a laxative and so it helps to pass the excess bacteria through the fish and out. This epsom salt solution can also be used to cure constipation.
 
Never Add Epsom Salt To The Tank - this will send your water stats crazy and isn't what is needed.
 
In the U.S I believe there is a food on the market that contains a anti-biotic and so in cases of Hex in the U.S I would use this as a cure - perhaps someone from the U.S can comment on the name of this food so all reading this know what it is.
 
 
Hopefully I've made that clear now to all reading this. Until I lost 2 baby angels, my breeding pair of bolivian rams and some tetra's I'd never even heard of Hexamita. It isn't a well known condition in fish but it can kill very quickly and seems to be most prevelant in cichlids for some reason. 

Thanks so much for all your advice. It does sound like bullying caused it, and may have lead to her succumbing to Hex as a result of lowered immune response. Regarding the epsom salt solution, if the food is soaked in it will that not leech into the water and have the same effect as adding it directly, just in smaller quantities? And this food you mentioned, I believe this may be it: http/www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Spectrum-Shield-Sinking-125Gm/dp/B00RXQ5I3S/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1446144790&sr=1-1&keywords=new+life+hex
 
So at least if this does begin to spread I now have an idea of what to do thanks to everyones help. Sorry for that late reply, very busy day today and yesterday. I will keep this thread updated if the situation changes but so far so good...
 
Not the best at taking pictures of fish, they have tendency to move about a bit! But here is my male as of just now:
 
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[Akasha72]

Hiya, firstly thanks for that link! I'm tempted to get some and feed it once a week to guard against my angels going down with it. It's a brand that I've heard good things about and it certainly seems to have been produced to do the job. 
 
So, your male is looking well. He's in full colour and looks alert in the photo's. With a bit of luck what you experienced was just a one off and the rest of the tank occupants will be absolutely fine. I think if it was Hex and your male had it too he would have succumbed by now
 
All the very best and I'll keep checking back for your updates

 

[NeonTetra97]

Hiya, firstly thanks for that link! I'm tempted to get some and feed it once a week to guard against my angels going down with it. It's a brand that I've heard good things about and it certainly seems to have been produced to do the job. 
 
So, your male is looking well. He's in full colour and looks alert in the photo's. With a bit of luck what you experienced was just a one off and the rest of the tank occupants will be absolutely fine. I think if it was Hex and your male had it too he would have succumbed by now
 
All the very best and I'll keep checking back for your updates

It can feel like we are left out in the UK from lots of the aquarium products available in America, but often Amazon can come to the rescue. I was also considering getting some, and using it as a prevention much like when I feed peas to avoid bloating. And as you say, New Life Spectrum food seems to be mentioned often in other threads and videos so its reputation is good. 

 

[Akasha72]

yeah ... I was thinking down the 'prevention is better than a cure' route. It's known that cichlids are susseptable to Hex more than any other species and I was wondering if feeding this food as a once a week prevention would be a good idea. After going though a Hex outbreak I never want to go through it again. I lost a beautiful breeding pair of bolivian rams, 2 baby angels and a couple of tetra's ... the tetra's didn't hurt so bad but the rams really upset me and to watch babies die was gut wrenching.
 
I'll sit back and wait to see if anyone else chips in on this first though. It'll be good to hear other views 

 

[NeonTetra97]

yeah ... I was thinking down the 'prevention is better than a cure' route. It's known that cichlids are susseptable to Hex more than any other species and I was wondering if feeding this food as a once a week prevention would be a good idea. After going though a Hex outbreak I never want to go through it again. I lost a beautiful breeding pair of bolivian rams, 2 baby angels and a couple of tetra's ... the tetra's didn't hurt so bad but the rams really upset me and to watch babies die was gut wrenching.
 
I'll sit back and wait to see if anyone else chips in on this first though. It'll be good to hear other views 

Oh no that must have been awful, I can now relate to the way it feels to loose the more 'special' fish. Loosing any fish is bad, but I can't say it has ever upset me greatly, I aways just tried fix any problems that caused the loss. But with the ram it got me a bit.
 
It would be good to know if Hex Shield being fed routinely would be bad, or if it should only be used as a treatment. And yes, anyone with personal experience would be really helpful!

 

[Byron]

You have to be careful using medications including medicated foods without reason, meaning aside from combating a specific disease that is likely present.  Some will lose their effectiveness the more they are given (antibiotics especially, just as with humans).
 
Maintaining fish in as stress-free an environment as possible should prevent 95% of disease, as stress is the known cause.  Pathogens have to be present too, and here I would think that good maintenance should prevent this.
 
The other thing is that there is no magic cure-all.  Any product safe enough to be used so regularly is likely not going to have much effect should the disease occur.
 
And in case anyone wonders, my view on this as stated above is based upon advice I received from a marine biologist and a microbiologist, so I tend to think it fairly reliable.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks for the input Byron. I does make sense ... I hadn't thought of it from that point of view

 

[NeonTetra97]

Yea feeding it to often I'm sure wouldn't be good, might be worth feeding it now just to be sure any Hex that might have been present is gone. And having some on hand in case of any future problems would be good, as I think it ships from America so getting it in an emergency would be tricky. And on the whole drug resistance side of the problem I'm not sure that would be an issue, see the link below:
 

3: Will my fish build up a tolerance to ICH/Hex Shield?

A: Ick-Shield and Hex-Shield attack the parasites directly, and thus your fish building a tolerance is not an issue.

 
(Sorry not allowed to post this link, apparently links to the site are prohibited, maybe because its another forum)

 

[Akasha72]

certain links to other sites are prohibited on here but I do find it annoying when we are trying to help. Any knowledge on a fish illness - a rare one and little known one like Hex especially - is good knowledge even if it's shared from another source.
 
I learned about Hexamita from another forum. I've learned all I've learned about my angelfish from another forum. All knowledge should be shared - especially when it's useful knowledge and could save an animals life

 

[NeonTetra97]

certain links to other sites are prohibited on here but I do find it annoying when we are trying to help. Any knowledge on a fish illness - a rare one and little known one like Hex especially - is good knowledge even if it's shared from another source.
 
I learned about Hexamita from another forum. I've learned all I've learned about my angelfish from another forum. All knowledge should be shared - especially when it's useful knowledge and could save an animals life

 
Certainly agree with that, this is the first time I have tried to post a prohibited link. A shame really, as you say all knowledge should be shared! If you do want that link I can PM it to you, its an interview with the creators of Hex Shield.

 

[Akasha72]

yes please

 

[NeonTetra97]

Does anyone have any info on garlic and parasites? I have heard from a few sources now that fish food containing garlic can help with internal parasites, specifically New Life Spectrum Thera A
 
This would be interesting to learn more about, and I assume Thera A can be used as a staple since it has no active chemicals 

 

[Akasha72]

all I know is garlic helps their immune system ... a bit like it does with us humans. I always eat more garlic in winter to stave off colds and it seems to work. I knew someone who made his own fish food and he always added garlic to it.
 
Don't quote me but I believe you can add slices of garlic to your tank ... pretty sure I read that somewhere but best to get another opinion before trying it

 

[Byron]

There is no harm in adding garlic to fish food, as this is a "food" in its own right.  Very different from adding chemicals, salt, antibiotics, etc., which are not "food."  I wouldn't put it in the tank water however, as solid chunks...this could foul the water.
 
Regardless of what the manufacturer says, one should use common sense.  One of the ingredients in that medicated food is magnesium sulfate, along with some chemicals.  I see no benefit in feeding this to fish regularly.  You know, most manufacturers will claim that overdosing water conditioners is harmless, but this is not at all true; at the very least these are adding TDS (total dissolved solids), not to mention the chemicals.  We must always keep in mind that every substance entering the water is getting into the fish's bloodstream.
 
Byron.

 

[NeonTetra97]

There is no harm in adding garlic to fish food, as this is a "food" in its own right.  Very different from adding chemicals, salt, antibiotics, etc., which are not "food."  I wouldn't put it in the tank water however, as solid chunks...this could foul the water.
 
Regardless of what the manufacturer says, one should use common sense.  One of the ingredients in that medicated food is magnesium sulfate, along with some chemicals.  I see no benefit in feeding this to fish regularly.  You know, most manufacturers will claim that overdosing water conditioners is harmless, but this is not at all true; at the very least these are adding TDS (total dissolved solids), not to mention the chemicals.  We must always keep in mind that every substance entering the water is getting into the fish's bloodstream.
 
Byron.

 
Thanks for the input Byron, what food were you referring to? NLS Hex Shield or NLS Thera A? I think Thera A is intended to be a staple and is not medicated but if I'm wrong then I won't be using it. 
 
And an update on the situation, my male has been behaving oddly since the female died, no sign of white poo, but he is over active. He won't stop darting up and down the glass, and butting it. Also I think I saw him 'flashing' on the driftwood a few times, it certainly looked that way at least. I'm now thinking some form of parasite is at play and not necessarily Hex. I will monitor for a day or two then decide if Flukes are the problem.