Blue Rams Pale And Lifeless

[NeonTetra97]

Hi all,
 
Very sad to find my female german blue ram very pale yesterday, and even more so today. She looks like she won't last much longer, and I'm not sure whats wrong with her.
 
Stats:
- 125 L
- Ammonia 0, Nitres 0, Nitrates 15-20ppm 
- 25 degrees C 
- Weekly 40% water changes 
 
Its so strange because the make is looking better than ever and so was she up until a few days ago. 
 
Any help would be amazing, thank you in advance!
 
(I have included a picture and as you can see she's not looking good at all

  )

 

[NeonTetra97]

She began to regain some colour and I was hopeful she was going to be okay until I found out for sure what was wrong with her, but sadly she has just died a few minutes ago.
 
Now begins the mission to halt the spread of whatever this is. The only symptoms that I noticed were: pale colour, heavy breathing and red gills, shyness, tiredness (resting on leaves or substrate) and odd swimming (tilting up, down or sideways and even upside down for a brief moment). I have added ParaGaurd to the water, but something tells me this might be internal and the ParaGaurd wont touch it anyone with any ideas at a all please share them!
 
Thanks

 

[Akasha72]

it does sound internal ... and it also sounds similar to what killed both my bolivian rams - they went pale, thin and lifeless, stopped eating and hung around in corners. The female had pop eye too. It wasn't long after that I found out about something called Hexamita. It's caused by a build up of bacteria in their guts and it's mostly caused by stress. Has there been any signs of stringy white poo? It looks like they are passing white cotton (as in sewing thread). If there has it may be Hex. It's difficult to diagnose
 
See what the others guys can come up with. It may not spread through the tank. If the other fish are healthy and happy this may just be a one off

 

[fatheadminnow]

Heavy breathing and red gills is a sign of excess ammonia in the tank.  Also, heavy breathing might be a sign of lack of oxygen in the tank, as well.  Although you said your ammonia is at 0ppm I think we can rule this out.  What test kit are you using by chance?  Swimming sideways and upside down might be a sign of some sort of swim bladder issue.

 

[fluttermoth]

Do you know the pH and hardness of your water?

Blue rams are very delicate little fish and won't last long if the water isn't to their liking; they don't adapt well if the water is too hard or alkaline, IME.

I would point out that your tank is a little too cool for them also, which could be another factor involved.

 

[Byron]

I concur with other members here.  Diagnosing specific issues is extremely difficult most of the time.  As you can see from the previous posts, several possibles occur with the noted symptoms.
 
But the first place to start is usually the water, both parameters (GH, pH and temperature) and quality (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  Nitrate is a tad high, but this alone would not cause what you are seeing though it may be a part of the overall health of the fish; cichlids are particularly sensitive to nitrate.  Temperature as fluttermoth said is too low for this species; around 27C/80F would be better for Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in any of its colour forms [obviously you have to consider the other fish, if any need it cooler then you will have issues as there is no "middle" ground sometimes.  Also the GH and pH can be critical; this is a species that always is in better overall health when maintained in parameters close to those in which it was hatched/raised.  Wild caught fish must have soft and slightly acidic water, but the colour varieties like the German Blue are not wild fish but commercially tank raised, so you have some room for adjustment if not excessive.
 
Byron.

 

[NeonTetra97]

it does sound internal ... and it also sounds similar to what killed both my bolivian rams - they went pale, thin and lifeless, stopped eating and hung around in corners. The female had pop eye too. It wasn't long after that I found out about something called Hexamita. It's caused by a build up of bacteria in their guts and it's mostly caused by stress. Has there been any signs of stringy white poo? It looks like they are passing white cotton (as in sewing thread). If there has it may be Hex. It's difficult to diagnose
 
See what the others guys can come up with. It may not spread through the tank. If the other fish are healthy and happy this may just be a one off

 
All the others do seem healthy so far, and I can't say I've seen any sign of white poo, I've been looking out for this and it has been normal. But there is always a chance I could get that wrong so I won't be ruling out Hex.
 

Heavy breathing and red gills is a sign of excess ammonia in the tank.  Also, heavy breathing might be a sign of lack of oxygen in the tank, as well.  Although you said your ammonia is at 0ppm I think we can rule this out.  What test kit are you using by chance?  Swimming sideways and upside down might be a sign of some sort of swim bladder issue.

API Liquid test for ammonia and strips for the rest, I know they aren't the best but the master test kit doesn't include hardness and I was planning to feed peas to try and address swim bladder but sadly by the time I had assessed the situation it was too late.
 

Do you know the pH and hardness of your water?

Blue rams are very delicate little fish and won't last long if the water isn't to their liking; they don't adapt well if the water is too hard or alkaline, IME.

I would point out that your tank is a little too cool for them also, which could be another factor involved.

I will get these stats posted right away, and will also increase the temperature 25 is a little low, need to adjust the heater. Thanks 
 

I concur with other members here.  Diagnosing specific issues is extremely difficult most of the time.  As you can see from the previous posts, several possibles occur with the noted symptoms.
 
But the first place to start is usually the water, both parameters (GH, pH and temperature) and quality (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  Nitrate is a tad high, but this alone would not cause what you are seeing though it may be a part of the overall health of the fish; cichlids are particularly sensitive to nitrate.  Temperature as fluttermoth said is too low for this species; around 27C/80F would be better for Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in any of its colour forms [obviously you have to consider the other fish, if any need it cooler then you will have issues as there is no "middle" ground sometimes.  Also the GH and pH can be critical; this is a species that always is in better overall health when maintained in parameters close to those in which it was hatched/raised.  Wild caught fish must have soft and slightly acidic water, but the colour varieties like the German Blue are not wild fish but commercially tank raised, so you have some room for adjustment if not excessive.
 
Byron.

 
Will get the temperature addressed right now, bring it up to 27 slowly. And I know they are sensitive little guys, I waited and waited to buy them and the male is looking his best at the moment, his colours really came out in the last few days and I'm beginning to suspect he may have been bullying the female. They did try to breed a while (month or two) ago, digging holes everywhere and defending them. But nothing recently. I will check on the water right now, but considering all the other look so healthy (for now ) I would be surprised if she was the only one affected.
 
Also should be noted that upon examining the body out of the water the gills were red, and I'm not sure if this was normal red or unusual. Its impossible to see in the pic I posted ufortianlty, but could it be gill flukes? I haven't seen and rubbing or flashing though so that kinda rules that out.
 
Finally, how can a disease (if it is a disease) show itself so late after getting them, I bought the rams and they are the newest addition to the tank, just under two months ago? I can only imagine they were both possibly infected with something and it was allowed to spread due to weak immune system from stress (bullying by the male?).
 
Sorry for the barrage of questions, I just really liked my rams and now I'm down to one and I want to make sure this stops! Thank you all so much for your advice!

 

[NeonTetra97]

Parameters:
 
Ammonia:   0
Nitrites:       0
Nitrates:     15-20ppm
GH:            8 degrees
KH:            3-6 degrees
PH:            6.4-6.8
Temp:        26 degrees
 
The PH, that was the odd one out, I'm going to test agin in a few minutes to see if it was the fault of the test strips but it was lower than I was expecting.
 
All readings are taken from Tetra strips, apart from the ammonia, thats an API liquid test.
 
All other tank mates looking good so far, that is: Male GBR, 8 Cardinals, 6 X-rays, 6 Amanos, 3 BN plecos

 

[fluttermoth]

It could be that the male has bullied the female to death, if he wanted to breed and she wasn't ready; they are cichlids, after all, and I've had some very aggressive rams over the years.

If all the other fish are healthy, then that may well be the answer.

 

[Akasha72]

we've not ruled anything in or out here - apart from the temp being a little low (sorry, I didn't notice that, kicking myself) what I would do now is keep an eye on the other fish - the male especially. If you see him passing any stringy looking poo and becoming lethargic add an anti-biotic and consider this could have been hexamita... it won't do any harm and if it is hex it'll treat it. Alongside the anti-biotic make up a solution in a jug of a tablespoon of epsom salt and half a litre of water (tap water is fine) and add their food to your net and dip it into the solution for a minute and then feed the food (never add salt to the tank) ... if this is hex the epsom salt helps to pass the excess bacteria through the gut while the anti-biotic gets to work. You'll need to do this twice a day for at least a week. 
 
Good luck and keep us posted

 

[NeonTetra97]

It could be that the male has bullied the female to death, if he wanted to breed and she wasn't ready; they are cichlids, after all, and I've had some very aggressive rams over the years.

If all the other fish are healthy, then that may well be the answer.

 
Oh no that would be so sad

although it doest surprise me in a way, when I firs got them I almost returned the female due to her being bullied but then they began presenting behaviours that looked like they were breeding so I thought the were getting along! But I understand their attitudes can change, they have plenty of places to hide, so is there any other ways to prevent this bullying? 
 

we've not ruled anything in or out here - apart from the temp being a little low (sorry, I didn't notice that, kicking myself) what I would do now is keep an eye on the other fish - the male especially. If you see him passing any stringy looking poo and becoming lethargic add an anti-biotic and consider this could have been hexamita... it won't do any harm and if it is hex it'll treat it. Alongside the anti-biotic make up a solution in a jug of a tablespoon of epsom salt and half a litre of water (tap water is fine) and add their food to your net and dip it into the solution for a minute and then feed the food (never add salt to the tank) ... if this is hex the epsom salt helps to pass the excess bacteria through the gut while the anti-biotic gets to work. You'll need to do this twice a day for at least a week. 
 
Good luck and keep us posted

And still thinking along the lines of a parasite currently thinking either Hex or gill flukes, the male definitely has brown to reddish poo, the food it very much that colour. Can hex ever be present with normal coloured poo maybe? And, I'm not sure we can get antibiotic meds over the counter here in the UK so might have to look for an alternative. I have dosed ParaGaurd earlier as I said, felt helpless doing nothing, and at least that may address some secondary effects even if it can't hit the primary cause of the problem. Will be going to my LFS tomorrow, would a worm treatment fight Hex? If its not necessarily antibiotic? 
 
I have looked more at the male and definitely can say the gills were much redder on the female and her berthing not necessarily faster but much heavier with the gills covers opening and closing much wider than his are at the moment.
 
So far all I have found that my LFS will stock is this: http/www.waterlife.co.uk/tropical/d-0/sterazin-detail#.Vi_1ALyl0cg
 
But I will keep looking!
 
Thank you both for the very quick replies, much appreciated

 

[Byron]

I would not be quick to dump medications in the tank.   Adding a medication will further stress the fish, and unless the specific issue is present, this is only adding more trouble.  If you have not seen flashing, I would seriously doubt gill flukes are the issue.  Akasha's suggestion is fine as a precaution, the epsom salt part, though I would be careful with antibiotics unless the issue is confirmed.
 
To the behaviour, which certainly may be the root issue.  Rams, like most cichlids, must select their mates.  A male will not accept any female, and vice-versa.  So this may have been the problem from the beginning.  I had a male Bolivian Ram (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, a closely related species to M. ramirezi) and after a couple years decided to try a female [this was before I understood the bonding issue].  They interacted a bit oddly I thought, but they also spawned four times...then the male made it very clear he had enough of her, and killed her by simply hounding her.  They had done this back and forth a lot, so I was slow to pick up and I lost the female.  To get a bonded pair, you can usually observe the fish in the store tank and spot a pair that have accepted each other.  Or buy several and let them pair off...only then you have the others to deal with.
 
Byron.

 

[NeonTetra97]

I would not be quick to dump medications in the tank.   Adding a medication will further stress the fish, and unless the specific issue is present, this is only adding more trouble.  If you have not seen flashing, I would seriously doubt gill flukes are the issue.  Akasha's suggestion is fine as a precaution, the epsom salt part, though I would be careful with antibiotics unless the issue is confirmed.
 
To the behaviour, which certainly may be the root issue.  Rams, like most cichlids, must select their mates.  A male will not accept any female, and vice-versa.  So this may have been the problem from the beginning.  I had a male Bolivian Ram (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, a closely related species to M. ramirezi) and after a couple years decided to try a female [this was before I understood the bonding issue].  They interacted a bit oddly I thought, but they also spawned four times...then the male made it very clear he had enough of her, and killed her by simply hounding her.  They had done this back and forth a lot, so I was slow to pick up and I lost the female.  To get a bonded pair, you can usually observe the fish in the store tank and spot a pair that have accepted each other.  Or buy several and let them pair off...only then you have the others to deal with.
 
Byron.

 
Yea I thought the lack of any flashing did make flukes less plausible, but then maybe there was flashing and I missed it. Hex also sounds plausible, the bullying may have weakened her and thats how Hex took hold? So it might be a good idea to stop the ParaGaurd, I have only administered one dose so far. Although I'm still reluctant to rule anything out I will hold off on the meds. But it sounds like the epsom salt might not be a bad idea and that is shrimp and fish safe?
 
One thing I totally forgot to mention in all this, a while ago I had a bad experience with some Corys (paleatus) I got them and they were sick from the start, sadly I lost them all one by one but learnt my lesson and changed my LFS, they had very similar symptoms to my GBR, and I think this is why I have been so biased towards an infection of some kind. Just realised I forgot to post this, I don't suppose something could have lurking from that incident? This did happen quite a while ago now.
 
Thanks Byron 

 

[Byron]

Most of us have been suggesting possible issues.  Diagnosis of disease is very difficult at the best of times.  You ultimately have to decide what to do or not do...my only advice is to not jump into medications too readily.  I have in the past killed fish solely by using an inappropriate medication.  I now tend to use one as the last resort, unless the symptoms are pretty clear.
 
Keep an eye on the other fish.  If nothing further develops, then I would put this down to bullying by the male that seriously weakens a fish.  You mention cardinal tetra, shrimp...these are very sensitive creatures when it comes to any chemical/medication.

 

[Akasha72]

I'm agreeing with Byron ... don't add any meds unless you see the stringy white poo (sorry, I should have made that clearer in my reply) You can get an anti-biotic but they are arn't easy to come by in the U.K. I used Waterlife's Octozin to treat Hex when I had it.
 
I'll make things a bit clearer as I've dealt with Hexamita in my own tank and so know a little about it.
 
Hex is caused by an excess build up of bacteria in the fishes gut. It is not a parasite. The bacteria in the fishes gut is there all the time - just like us humans - but it can build up excessively and this what is known as Hexamita. Extreem stress seems to be the cause and so by the fact that we know your male was being over amourous with your female I think it was possibly Hex that killed your female.
 
On to the signs: The first sign of Hex is stringy white poo. This will look like white sewing thread and they can be trailing a long line of it from their anus. If this goes untreated the fish will then become lethargic and start isolating itself. It will lose colouration in some cases (losing colour is also a sign of stress in fish) The final stage is loss of appetite ... once this happens it's unlikely that the fish will survive. 
It's difficult to say a timescale for Hex, sometimes all the above can happen over a few days but sometimes it takes longer but it is important to act before the fish loses it's need to feed.
 
Treating Hexamita: Add an anti-biotic - in the U.K this means a medication which can be hard to come by unless you visit a vet. Waterlife do a product which contains an anti-biotic. It is called Octozin. Alongside the anti-biotic make up a solution in a seperate container (never to be added to the tank) for this solution you will need half a litre of water (tap water is fine, no need for dechlorinator) and a tablespoon of epsom salt (magnesium sulphate) mix the water and salt well and add the fishes food to your net and dunk it into the solution then add the food to the tank. You will need to repeat this process twice a day for around a week to 10 days.
The solution works as a laxative and so it helps to pass the excess bacteria through the fish and out. This epsom salt solution can also be used to cure constipation.
 
Never Add Epsom Salt To The Tank - this will send your water stats crazy and isn't what is needed.
 
In the U.S I believe there is a food on the market that contains a anti-biotic and so in cases of Hex in the U.S I would use this as a cure - perhaps someone from the U.S can comment on the name of this food so all reading this know what it is.
 
 
Hopefully I've made that clear now to all reading this. Until I lost 2 baby angels, my breeding pair of bolivian rams and some tetra's I'd never even heard of Hexamita. It isn't a well known condition in fish but it can kill very quickly and seems to be most prevelant in cichlids for some reason.