Black C. Aenus .....

[Coryman]

Sometimes I wonder how it is that people dispute fact and publicise fiction.

I have stated how the 'Black' C. aeneus came to be several times, on several forums and I am sure here as well, but to clear up the origins of the 'Black' here is a statement from Hans-Georg Evers.
"I knew the guy who "created" the "black aeneus". His name was Hartmut Eberhardt. He lived in Weimar and was a dear friend of Dr. Hanns-Joachim Franke. Both were my friends and both are already dead and it seems, that some storys need to be retold. Hartmut had the very first black aeneus amongst his thousands of normally coloured ones of the "schultzei-type". The black ones have orange fins in the first months of their life and so does one type of aeneus from Venezuela. This type lives in the Llanos of Venezuela and also Colombia and is regularly being imported. When they darken their body colouration (stress, light, etc.) they resemble the black youngsters and this might have lead to the name Black aeneus from Venezuela."

Has also told me that many of the 'Black' were sold to breeders in the Czech Republic, who then started to reproduce them in large numbers, these were eventually exported all over the world with some of the first coming to the UK around 1980 and I first bred them in November 1981.

Yes Jollysue, they are man made through line breeding not by invention as you seem to be jesting about, and who said they were "German mutants"? If you are referring to the statement I made some time back about the long straggly finned Corys, and ancistrus for that matter, which were developed using hormone breeding methods. The it is you who has included the "Blacks" in this category not I.

The fish that you have had from Frank as far as I am aware are not from the Venezuelan strain, which show redish-brown fins and are of a stockier build.

The "Black" will never get any scientific recognition unless it is found in a wild population, it's parentage may be, as it is almost certain that C. schultzii will be re-instated as a full species in the fullness of time, but because Holly's original material was lost in WWII neotypes will have to be used from the type locality.

Also to clarify the use of the term "cf" as in C. cf aeneus or whenever used after the genus and before the species name means 'Character of' meaning it "Looks like or similar too".

Hopefully this will clear up the whole speculation about the "Black" Cory

Ian

 

[§tudz]

some good info there, its been added to my knowledge bank

and I did wondered what cf ment, I though it was like sp. I wasnt too far wrong mind

 

[Coryologist]

who said they were "German mutants"?

Hi Ian. That was my comment - but I meant to say, "Czech" mutants.

I was informed by Kevin Korotev, from whom I received my original group, that the fish the breeding colony consisted of were imported from Venezuela. Of course we all know that someone could have told him that, also, without having a clue. - Frank

 

[Coryman]

After talking to Hans about the "Blacks" and the species from Venezuela I am now sure the Venezuelan "Black" species is similar to C. venezulanus but larger and darker, the ones I have seen are not actually black.

Ian

 

[jollysue]

Ian:

Once again you have accused me of talking about you and having you or something you said in mind. I was not talking to or about you. I am making great effort to keep from saying something that would be really rude. But if what I said applied to you why do you take offence?

My definition of the term "man made" does not include something living and born alive. I would not even include so called test tube babies, other than that it took a man's dna/sperm to make the embrio. I would be hestant to call even a cloned animal man made. Life comes from God in my world. Man can only manipulate it, but he does not make it. I would never call a nectarine man made, although I know they are a hybrid. I would not refer to a tea rose as man made. Or my clever Yorkie/Dachsund. This is my philosophy and view. My faith and perhaps my farm country heritage contribute to this.

I did realize that you had a definition for the blacks after the discussion was started and the German thing came up, because I googled them. But I did not know that when I made the objection to the term "man made." As Studz will recall I objected to the term elsewhere by someone else in a different forum about a totaly different fish that Studz called ratty looking--although he cleared that up saying he was talking about the future of my pet.

All this hysteria in the UK has cost me no little trouble defending my dwarf pet Synos which were confirmed to be "real" by PlanetCatfish and not hybrid or any such thing. So the whole issue annoys me, and not because of you. It annoyed me before I knew you existed. Although it is clear that the constant accusation by you that I am talking about you and making veiled references to you is annoying to me.

You after all are a public figure and people will refer to you and the message you deliver to all the fish world. I think you are entirely too sensitive, as I have told you before. I am beginning to think you may be a little paraniod. I do not know why you find it necessary to keep lecturing me publicly.

 

[NEONCORY]

I am sorry to cause the heated argument or resentment.,etc.

I just typed the term "man made" before think it deeply. I meant to say was "selective bred". It is solely my lack of understanding and command of English language.

And I sincerely regret the miss use of the word.

 

[Coryman]

"man made"

Can you provide a link to the formula for making Corys (or any other form of life)?"

Jollysue, It was not me that made the comment. And I did say IF you were referring..... I was not actually accusing you of anything. My post was made in an attempt to clear up the "Black" aeneus confusion and not take a pop at you other than your flippant comment complete with the

As far as I am concerned there are two forms of "Man made" and I use the term to mean Man manipulated, as against Man invented, I am sure you know exactly what I mean. Strains produced by artificial un-natural means and those produced by selective breeding and it is the former that I disagree with. I am not saying your views are wrong, just that I don't agree with them in this particular area.



NEONCORY,

You have nothing to apologise for, I am sure most people would apply the term "Man made" loosely. We all have our views and sometimes they clash.

Ian

 

[jollysue]

Which views of mine do you disagree with, Ian? I am not in favor of "puppy mill" fish breeding either.

I find that frequently the use of the term "man made" conveys a negative connotation and often no small amount of ranting. Perhaps not everyone is using the term the same. Most often (not refering to you, NEON) when I see it used someone is ranting about how they think it is unthinkable and unnecessary and ugly.

I did not believe that Neon would be offended with me and my comment on his use of the word. If I offended you, NEON, I apologise. I just don't like the term. It carries connotations for me, and I am sure others.

I appreciate information. I like information. Educate me to facts. Tell me your opinion.

Ian, it did feel to me as though you had taken a poke at me specifically. And not the first time I have felt that. It was directed at me specifically. It has happen before, both publicly and privately. I say again as I have tried to assure you before, I do not have my sights aimed at you. Although sometimes I do take pot shots at opinions and attitudes that I don't agree with. It is your choice to take them personally, not my intent. I sometimes use sarcasm. On the other hand, if and when I have offended you, I am sorry and I hope you can forgive me. I do not believe I meant to hurt you.

As far as me thinking that the term "man made" applied to life is laughable I reserve the right to my opinion. I think it is slanted and imprecise. It is used as a term of derision in most cases. It sounds like a term of derision in most cases. Not you, Neon.

Tell us more about classifications. What is sp.?

 

[Coryman]

Jollysue,

Firstly you haven't offended me at all and it is not my intention to offend you, we obviously have different opinions, especially as to what defines "Man made" So let me ask how you would term or title the method of producing fish by un-natural means, which have produced un-natural features. Whether these features were or were not desired is of no importance, but the fact is they have been capitalised upon by these breeders. If this is not "Man made" what is it? And how would you define a fish that has been developed through many years of selective breeding. In both cases I would ask for a definitive title, not an explanation, for each type of developing non-natural occurring fish.

Just as a point of interest the dictionary quotes "Man-made"adj made by humans; artificial.

A species is subdivision of a genus considered as a basic biological classification and containing individuals that resemble one another and that may interbreed. What defines a species for description is something else that is very subjective and depends entirely on the view of the person making the description and how far that person is prepared to research. This is not something that is confined to scientists as many amateurs have delved into this area much to the dismay of the scientific fraternity.

Ian

 

[jollysue]

I'm sorry, Ian. Let me get back to you, I hope, tonight. I am expecting Frank's Corys today anytime before 7 pm. I have not slept and I work tonight. I am trying to piece together, disinfect, and set up somewhere some tanks for these nice rare lovely fish before they arrive. And frankly I am fried. I don't wanrt to reply fliply without some thought. I will be back.

Maybe some others have some ideas. As I said there are connotations in the term man made, and it is often used negatively, along with "manufactured," and with additional negative comments. So it is not a neutral term in enough usage to make it a safe term in my mind, and add that to as I say my personal view of God given life, for me and I would think others it rubs wrong.

Of course it is doubtful that even if we coin a better phrase and even with your influence would we successfully change the usage.

 

[jollysue]

So do you have pictures of the ones that have red fins from Venezuela and the ones from Germany, Ian?

I have to read your information again, because it is a little confusing for me.

 

[LeeF]

So do you have pictures of the ones that have red fins from Venezuela and the ones from Germany, Ian?

I have to read your information again, because it is a little confusing for me.

http/www.nettaigyo.com/corydoras/encyc/c...nezuelanus.html

 

[jollysue]

And the ones from Germany?

 

[LeeF]

And the ones from Germany?

are the same as those from the Czech republic

look at the last 2 on this link....

http/www.nettaigyo.com/corydoras/encyc/c...ras/aeneus.html

 

[jollysue]

Well so far mine do not look at all like those last ones.

They look lots like what I would imagine a red tail shark fry looks like, Dark brown to black allover except the fins and tail are red. They are not deep bodied, but are more torpedo shaped. ICEEGRL posted a photo of the parents on the Weitzmani thread

near the bottom of the page