Biological media problem

[Essjay]

Both ammonia and nitrite should be zero. Have they always been 0.5?

 

[Stanster59]

I've never managed to get them down, why I was adding more biological media.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Ammonia 0.5, Nitrite 0.5, Nitrate 20ppm.

NTL aquarium test kit.

Only fish left are some green neon rasbora , sparkling gourami and 1 peppered cory

I've never managed to get them down, why I was adding more biological media.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrite?

How many fish did you have before they started dying? Total numbers of each species? Was it fairly heavily stocked? Do you have any live plants in there? And when you clean the filter, do you run the media under the tap?

 

[Stanster59]

No I haven't recently, should have done it at the same time, will do at next water change.
Had 6 raboras, 6 blue neon tetra, 5 corys and 6 sparkling gouramis..
There are live plants, Amazon swords and anuabis on wood and java fern.
20% water change weekly and sponges washed in tanks water. New media was soaked in tank water before it went in filter, added 600g over 3 weeks.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

No I haven't recently, should have done it at the same time, will do at next water change.
Had 6 raboras, 6 blue neon tetra, 5 corys and 6 sparkling gouramis..
There are live plants, Amazon swords and anuabis on wood and java fern.
20% water change weekly and sponges washed in tanks water. New media was soaked in tank water before it went in filter, added 600g over 3 weeks.

When's the next water change due? Only it's hard for us to figure out why you're getting ammonia and nitrite readings in the tank, if we don't know whether it's coming from the source water or the tank inhabitants...

Sorry that we're like, pelting you with questions! Especially if I seem short, don't mean to just a bit pushed for time, but want to try to help puzzle out what's wrong, and since we can't see the tank or fish ourselves, we have to hurl questions at you.

Have you added any of these fish recently?

The filter cleaning in old tank water is good

Personally, I recommend doing a large water now - 60-75%, then test the water again. There shouldn't be any ammonia or nitrite in there, and if they've been living with a constant low level of ammonia and nitrites, they'll be stressed and succumb to more illnesses, eventually dying from it. Remember that ammonia burns their gills... imagine breathing in something that's burning your lungs, over an extended period of time. That's how it is for fish living in ammonia/nitrite. It might be low enough for them to survive for a while, but they will be hurting and stressed, and eventually die. If the ammonia rises sharply, they die faster.

 

[Stanster59]

When's the next water change due? Only it's hard for us to figure out why you're getting ammonia and nitrite readings in the tank, if we don't know whether it's coming from the source water or the tank inhabitants...

Sorry that we're like, pelting you with questions! Especially if I seem short, don't mean to just a bit pushed for time, but want to try to help puzzle out what's wrong, and since we can't see the tank or fish ourselves, we have to hurl questions at you.

Have you added any of these fish recently?

The filter cleaning in old tank water is good

Personally, I recommend doing a large water now - 60-75%, then test the water again. There shouldn't be any ammonia or nitrite in there, and if they've been living with a constant low level of ammonia and nitrites, they'll be stressed and succumb to more illnesses, eventually dying from it. Remember that ammonia burns their gills... imagine breathing in something that's burning your lungs, over an extended period of time. That's how it is for fish living in ammonia/nitrite. It might be low enough for them to survive for a while, but they will be hurting and stressed, and eventually die. If the ammonia rises sharply, they die faster.

Thanks for your help, I'll test the tap water later today and take action as you suggest.
The last fish to go in were the guoramis about a month ago and they seem fine

I was even considering adding a ram as everything seemed.settled.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thanks for your help, I'll test the tap water later today and take action as you suggest.
The last fish to go in were the guoramis about a month ago and they seem fine

I was even considering adding a ram as everything seemed.settled.

No worries, hope we can help you figure out what's going on in there! Definitely a bit of a mystery why ammonia and nitrites keep showing in a tank that's been established for a while. @Naughts is really good for this sort of thing, I'm sure he'll puzzle it out

Look forward to the update

 

[Stanster59]

Tap water came clear for nitrite and ammonia, retested tank water, ammonia clear but there was a bit of colour for nitrite, not clear but not pink enough to be first level, 0.25.
Did make one other change when I added the biogravel and changed from seachem prime to API tapsafe , as recommended by the filtepro guy.

 

[Stanster59]

Biogravel (500g)

Suitable as a shrimp and plant substrate media for under gravel filter internal filters HOB filters small canister filters and DIY filters made from

filterpro.co.uk

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Tap water came clear for nitrite and ammonia, retested tank water, ammonia clear but there was a bit of colour for nitrite, not clear but not pink enough to be first level, 0.25.
Did make one other change when I added the biogravel and changed from seachem prime to API tapsafe , as recommended by the filtepro guy.

I don't know those products or that guy I'm afraid, @Essjay is the chemist here, perhaps she can help! Shame about changing conditioners since Prime helps detoxify nitrites for 24 hours or so, so would help keep the fish safe between daily water changes.

Ammonia and nitrites really need to be at zero, not sure why your tank is producing so much. Are you sure you've removed all of the dead bodies? If there's a tetra stuck in the filter or deep in some plants somewhere, that would be producing ammonia, and explain the ammonia/nitrite readings now, but wouldn't explain why you've been getting those readings for a while now.

Have you had ammonia and nitrite readings ever since the tank was set up? How often and how much do you water change?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Ooohh, @Byron is here! If anyone could figure it out, it's him

 

[Byron]

Ooohh, @Byron is here! If anyone could figure it out, it's him

I wouldn't go this far, and other members are on the right track in this thread anyway. But as I got pulled into it, I do have a general comment.

When you have live plants, especially fairly rapid growers like swords (floating plants are incredibly good for this too), biological filtration is not necessary and should not be encouraged. In other words, let the plants do the work. A filter is good to move the water around and provide adequate surface disturbance, but all this fancy media is generally a waste. And there is always the possibility that regardless of what the manufacturers say, this or that may have some reaction.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

When you have live plants, especially fairly rapid growers like swords (floating plants are incredibly good for this too), biological filtration is not necessary and should not be encouraged. In other words, let the plants do the work. A filter is good to move the water around and provide adequate surface disturbance, but all this fancy media is generally a waste. And there is always the possibility that regardless of what the manufacturers say, this or that may have some reaction.

This is good to know, thank you
Incidentally, when I tried to use an established sponge filter to start a new tank, it took far longer to mini-cycle than I expected, given that the filter had been running on another tank for a year or so. Someone suggested then that since the tank it came from was heavily planted with fast growers, that the plants were essentially outcompeting and starving off the nitrifying bacteria - so the sponge filter was helping a little, but mainly just doing some mechanical filtration and adding some bubbles/surface disturbance.

Is that the kind of thing you mean? That adding a fancy bio-media to that heavily planted tank would have been a waste of money, and that it's better to rely on plants?

Sorry to keep banging on about it, but I still have to say how wonderful it is to see you back, and to read your posts again! You bring so much wisdom here, and your posts are a joy to read.

Edited to fix spelling and grammar. Must proof-read more.

 

[Naughts]

I agree with other posters that this is most likely a slight water quality issue that has left the fish stressed which weakens immunity. If the ammonia and nitrite have ever been higher than the current readings that could have been enough to kill the fish out right. A bacteria based cycle takes weeks or months to establish and a silent (planted) cycle can fluctuate as plants grow and/or die back, as well as when fish are added.

So the key will be to maintain a balance which maximises water quality. I would be inclined to up the weekly water change to 50%. Check the ammonia and nitrite daily for a couple of weeks, doing water changes whenever the readings are not 0. Keep being careful to avoid chlorine in the water or on the media to preserve any beneficial bacteria. Provide the plants with enough light and nutrients so that they can keep improving the water quality.

Of course, if fish losses are ongoing, post photos of any sick fish with a description of their symptoms. A picture of the whole tank also helps us to eliminate or spot issues straight away.

 

[Byron]

This is good to know, thank you
Incidentally, when I tried to use an established sponge filter to start a new tank, it took far longer to mini-cycle than I expected, given that the filter had been running on another tank for a year or so. Someone suggested then that since the tank it came from was heavily planted with fast growers, that the plants were essentially outcompeting and starving off the nitrifying bacteria - so the sponge filter was helping a little, but mainly just doing some mechanical filtration and adding some bubbles/surface disturbance.

Is that the kind of thing you mean? That adding a fancy bio-media to that heavily planted tank would have been a waste of money, and that it's better to rely on plants?

Sorry to keep banging on about it, but I still have to say how wonderful it is to see you back, and to read your posts again! You bring so much wisdom here, and your posts are a joy to read.

Edited to fix spelling and grammar. Must proof-read more.

Yes, you have latched on to the crux of the issue. We are concerned with ammonia first and foremost, and in the absence of plants we rely on the establishment of the nitrifying bacteria to "cycle" the tank and then keep it healthy. This has the ammonia to nitrite stage and then the nitrite to nitrate stage; we don't need to worry about the nitrate stage here, that's something else.

Aquatic plants need nitrogen, and studies have shown that the vast majority prefer ammonium. Ammonia/ammonium is for our simplification the same thing, only toxic ammonia occurs in basic (higher pH) water while harmless ammonium occurs in acidic water. But plants will eagerly take up the ammonia/ammonium, and they are faster at doing this than the nitrifying bacteria. So, plants "out-compete" the bacteria. The added benefit of plants is there is no nitrite, and thus little or no nitrate, down the line. It depends upon the biological system of course, I am being very general here.

Rapid growing plants, and floating are the best for this, are often termed "ammonia sinks" because of the amount of ammonia/ammonium they can take up. Another aspect many fail to realize is that these aquatic plants do not like to use nitrate; they only turn to taking up nitrate if they have insufficient ammonium to balance the other nutrients/light. This is because the plants must convert the nitrate back into ammonium, and that takes considerable energy, so it is a "last resort" of sorts for the plant.