BETTER FISHMATES.

[Sunnyspots]

I'll just mention, now I know this info, that a group of five or more will in time (and not all that far down the road) need an 8-foot/240 cm long tank to provide minimal space for the fish to properly interact without risking death...and this is not guaranteed either.

I'll scrap the idea of angelfish! They need too much space!

 

[Avel1896]

I'll scrap the idea of angelfish! They need too much space!

Considering their adult size (20 x 20 cm) I find that a 200 x 60 x 60 cm is the bare minimum to house 5 Angels.
@Byron ?

 

[Byron]

I will post a video of 11 wild Pterophylum scalare (the common angelfish) that were at the time of this video in a tank 6.5 by 2 by 2 feet (200cm by 65cm by 65cm). The poster mentions [if you scroll through the many comments] that this is really too small a space, and their aggressive interactions may get worse if not moved to a significantly larger tank, and they were in fact given to a public aquarium.

The issue of aggression is a matter of the number of the species in the group/shoal, and the tank space. It is established fact that these two factors do influence the aggressiveness of fish. The poster mentions that in the public aquarium (no idea which this is) the "wild angels are in a huge tank (about 20ft x 3ft x 5ft) and they seem to like to have about 1ft of space between them and the next angel before they properly relax." Lest anyone think that this means a group of five could manage in a 5-foot tank...no. The pheromones that the fish release as their means of communication enter the water and the fish cannot escape them, and this plus the physical space combine.

The mild interactions displayed in this video are normal, but there is always the likelihood that things can worsen; with sufficient/adequate space the fish can avoid direct attacks by simply keeping their distance. This is why I endlessly hammer on about researching the species' habitats and behaviours and then providing what the fish "expect" so they can engage in normal interactions without tearing one another to shreds. If a pair should form within this group, this tank would be no where near adequate to prevent serious injuries.

 

[Avel1896]

I love this video I watched at least 5-6 times already !

In short : DaveM's tank is 6.6 ft/200 cm long and kept 9 Angels which is definitely too much. He's been obliged to add 4 Angels to the 5 first to dissipate (should I say first 5??) agressive/nippy behavior without any improvement, reason why he gave them to a public tank.
He also said a couple shoud be fine in 200 liters/57 gal. I wonder if a trio (1m 2f) from the same fry could do fine in the same volume, knowing it also depends on each personality ?

Very intesresting point : they need 1 ft/30 cm 1ft of space between them and the next Angel before they properly relax.

 

[Byron]

He also said a couple shoud be fine in 200 liters/57 gal. I wonder if a trio (1m 2f) from the same fry could do fine in the same volume, knowing it also depends on each personality ?

I didn't spot this, but I would caution that this solely depends on other factors. Taking the three angelfish first, no, this is not going to work if one (or more) is a male. As for the two, this will work if they are a bonded pair; it might work with two females. Might.

The problem with inexperienced aquarists trying these "experiments" is them recognizing the risks and having a plan to deal with the probable issues. If this 200 liter tank is the only tank the person has, what is he/she going to do when one of the two or three decides he has had enough of the ingression by one or both of the others into its territory? There will only be one (or two if a pair should materialize) left before long, as there is insufficient space for the other one or two to avoid, and a male angelfish will certainly view the entire 200 liter tank as "his space."

 

[Avel1896]

Copy-paste :

Dave M

il y a 4 ans

It partly depends on the personality of the fish, some can be extremely aggressive but generally speaking I would say that a male and female in a 600ltr tank should be absolutely fine, and most would also be OK in a 57gallon tank. Both those tank sizes should be big enough to add some other types of fish that may help dissipate aggression, if one was being slightly aggressive..

 

[Avel1896]

Taking the three angelfish first, no, this is not going to work if one (or more) is a male.

Well I said ""if a trio (1m 2f) from the same fry"".

 

[Byron]

Well I said ""if a trio (1m 2f) from the same fry"".

That is unlikely to work. First, if the male decides to spawn with 1 female, the second female will not be able to distance herself and both male and female in the "pair" will see her as a threat. And the likelihood of a pair bonding from just the three is relatively remote.

I will always recommend against these combinations simply because the risk is too great and it is usually the less experienced who want to "experiment" like this.

 

[Avel1896]

who want to "experiment" like this.

Don't worry I won't experiment anything
So to make sure a pair bonds to become a couple, fishes must choose each other ?

 

[itiwhetu]

I always advise if you are going to keep Cichlids of any species you need to have multiple tanks so that you can move things around when things turn nasty. With Cichlids it is usually a case of when and not if.

 

[Byron]

Don't worry I won't experiment anything
So to make sure a pair bonds to become a couple, fishes must choose each other ?

When it comes to angelfish, yes. Both ram species are the same; I don't know about other cichlids...some Apistogramma may do something similar when a male decides he will spawn with female "x" out of the three or four in the harem. But with angelfish and rams, they must select their mate, and the pair will (hopefully) bond. This can last their lifetime. Or they may "divorce" along the way. But success spawning a pair is much greater if they have selected each other and bonded.

It is usually easy to see likely "pairs" in a tank of fish. The males will be continually "challenging" each other, and a female allowed to remain close to a male is a likely candidate. Nothing is guaranteed though.

 

[itiwhetu]

When it comes to angelfish, yes. Both ram species are the same; I don't know about other cichlids...some Apistogramma may do something similar when a male decides he will spawn with female "x" out of the three or four in the harem. But with angelfish and rams, they must select their mate, and the pair will (hopefully) bond. This can last their lifetime. Or they may "divorce" along the way. But success spawning a pair is much greater if they have selected each other and bonded.

It is usually easy to see likely "pairs" in a tank of fish. The males will be continually "challenging" each other, and a female allowed to remain close to a male is a likely candidate. Nothing is guaranteed though.

When I bought my pair of Discus I saw them interacting with each other at the LFS and decided they would be a pair. The Discus were only about 4 inches long but their behavior was distinct. I encourage people when they go into an LFS don't walk up to the tanks but stand back so you can watch the fish interacting with each other, it is surprising what you see.

 

[charlotte1211]

When anyone posts something like this, I am compelled to comment. Please understand it is not intended to be argumentative, nor derogatory. It is simply a statement of factual information that is not understood especially by those new to the hobby, and since we have members new to the hobby it would be disadvantageous to not explain things. Hopefully we have all come here to learn as well as share what we already know.

The misleading info is a big problem; much of what one finds by searching the internet is inaccurate, misleading, or just plain false. Anyone can run a site and make videos, but the data may be completely erroneous. Another member has recently posted links to what are totally impossible videos of someone catching human-developed fancy strains of bettas and other fish in natural rivers. This sort of nonsense does the hobby no good. Each of us needs to learn who is the "authority" and follow that advice or use their information. This is not to say that authorities never make mistakes, we all do; but these people have peer review, and the intelligence to use it.

I also feel it is wrong to assume that because something has been tried, it must work. This is not in the best interests of the fish. Fish. like all animals, can put up with a lot that is not in their best interests, as the will to overcome everything and live is the strongest force in all animals. Swimming, eating and spawning are not guarantees that "x" is OK. The complex biological interrelationship of fish to their aquatic environment is most assuredly not understood by many, and it must be learned (at least to the point of being recognized and accepted as crucial) by all of us entering the hobby. We cannot ever assume that just because we see nothing externally, everything is good. Stress caused by this or that can continue for months before a fish shows any external "symptom," and by then it is too late. Stress causes 90% of all aquarium fish disease. And the only way to avoid stress is to research and understand the species' requirements and provide them whether exactly or artificially, depending upon the factor.

I agree and understand. It wasn’t my intention to give false information as said before it’s something I will have to look into!
Always more to learn within this hobby.