Betta with an eye-deformity. Should I buy?

I would imagine that there are many people who have the necessary expertise on this forum who would know whether you can 'post' a living creature.

I certainly would do everything possible to adopt it. If not, I'm sure that nobody will buy it and the man may just leave it to die. I suppose that your location is too far for you to go and rescue it ? Poor thing, it deserves to have a happy life.

How much will it cost you to save it?


I hate to say it, but it's completely normal in the aquatics trade to post fish etc. it goes on all the time, there are aquatics shops all over the internet posting fish out.

How do you think the tropical fish arrive in aquatics shops in Europe in the first place? They get shipped over from Asia/S. America/Africa. They even sedate the fish before sending them. It's pretty appalling.

Judging by some of the stuff I've read on this forum already (In the introduction forum, even the mods are trying to help someone keep 2 guppies in a 3.5 gallon tank after the last 2 Guppies he had died in there) I do not think anyone here is going to bat an eyelid at getting fish sent in the post!

The fish is in Manchester, I am in London, collecting in person is not an option.

They want £12 for the fish and £11 postage.
 
Judging by some of the stuff I've read on this forum already (In the introduction forum, even the mods are trying to help someone keep 2 guppies in a 3.5 gallon tank after the last 2 Guppies he had died in there) I do not think anyone here is going to bat an eyelid at getting fish sent in the post!
I'm somewhat offended by this paragraph. Yes, often people come here with fish in less than ideal conditions. Yet there are still living fish involved, so people will do their best to offer advice to keep those fish alive and as well as possible, even in less than ideal conditions, while, if you read that thread, you'll also see people - mods included - urging the poster to provide the right conditions when possible. I don't know what you think people should do in those cases, berate the person and chase them away from the hobby? Ignore them? Again, if you read the thread, no one said that 3.5 gallons is fine for guppies.

As for your issue with shipping fish, what is the objection? Is sending a fish in a parcel with a heatpack inhumane compared to putting a fish in a bag in your car and driving it home, without a heat pack? It's a weird objection to me. Sedating a fish for transport isn't common at all.

Edit: typo
 
I hate to say it, but it's completely normal in the aquatics trade to post fish etc. it goes on all the time, there are aquatics shops all over the internet posting fish out.

How do you think the tropical fish arrive in aquatics shops in Europe in the first place? They get shipped over from Asia/S. America/Africa. They even sedate the fish before sending them. It's pretty appalling.

Judging by some of the stuff I've read on this forum already (In the introduction forum, even the mods are trying to help someone keep 2 guppies in a 3.5 gallon tank after the last 2 Guppies he had died in there) I do not think anyone here is going to bat an eyelid at getting fish sent in the post!

The fish is in Manchester, I am in London, collecting in person is not an option.

They want £12 for the fish and £11 postage.

Yes, it's quite sad and I have read some links from Peta about the appalling conditions of the tropical fish industry.:sad:

I also don't understand why people keep fish in tiny bowl and jars. You don't have to be an expert to know it's wrong.

Would you consider forking out £ 23 to save it ?
 
I'm somewhat offended by this paragraph. Yes, often people come here with fish in less than ideal conditions. Yet there are still living fish involved, so people will do their best to offer advice to keep those fish alive and as well as possible, even in less than ideal conditions, while, if you read that thread, you'll also see people - mods included - urging the poster to provide the right conditions when possible. I don't know what you think people should do in those cases, berate the person and chase them away from the hobby? Ignore them? Again, if you read the thread, no one said that 3.5 gallons is fine for guppies.

As for your issue with shipping fish, what is the objection? Is sending a fish in a parcel with a heatpack inhumane compared to putting a fish in a bag in your car and driving it home, without a heat pack? It's a weird objection to me. Sedating a fish for transport isn't common at all.

Edit: typo


You should not be offended, as I noticed you were one of only a few who actually pointed that out, and it was a really good post you made in that thread, I almost quoted it to say thank you for putting it better than I did, but thought I'd said enough.

If you are offended, that makes two of us though, as I found that thread highly offensive. Not so much the original poster, but the response that it got, on a fish forum, was pretty disgraceful.

From what I read in that thread (it started as a 'fish bowl' for a kid, then the fish died and were replaced with 'identical fish', presumably to spare the kid's feelings) I think the only viable option is for that person to return the fish ASAP and not make them suffer anymore.

I wouldn't call it a 'hobby'. Is a Dog, or Cat a hobby? The fish tank itself, aquascaping, plants etc is a hobby, but the fish are pets.

As it happens, in that case, I think the person needs a kick up the backside, for the sake of the fish. It's not worth sparing a person's feelings and letting them suffer.

Yes, I do somewhat object to having a live creature sent overnight in a box. That is not the same as me buying a fish from the LFS and driving it home. That is only going to take me about half an hour.
 
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I think the only viable option is for that person to return the fish ASAP and not make them suffer anymore.

Just a difference of opinion then, I don't think that's the only option. Getting the water quality in that 3.5g okay so the fish survive is priority number one for me, then working on persuading them that a larger tank is what the fish need, and will be easier to maintain, or to rehome/return the fish once the tank is stable, and just keep shrimp or snails instead. But none of that can happen if the fish have died of ammonia poisoning within a day.

I try to be gentle to people who are new to the hobby (the fish keeping hobby, whether you call fishkeeping a hobby is semantics really, but it's a useful catch all term) because many have been misguided by fish stores, including in that thread. For people new to fishkeeping, it makes sense to ask a fish store. They should know how to care for fish, it makes perfect sense to follow their advice. Then they end up with a tiny overstocked, uncycled tank, dying fish, and a sharp lesson in the fact that it's more complicated than adding fish to a box.

Berating people for following bad advice doesn't help them or the fish. The vast majority of people do not want to be cruel, aren't trying to be heartless, and will respond better to kindness and guidance rather than venom. Ideally, everyone would research any pet long before getting it, but I also don't entirely blame them for listening to a fish store and trusting bad advice, or googling and finding misinformation, there's certainly plenty out there.

I also believe that there isn't a fishkeeper out there who hasn't made a mistake. I know I've made my share, including ones that have killed fish. I feel terrible about that, but mistakes do happen... whether people admit them or not.

Telling them to just return the fish and give up isn't likely to work, they're more likely to ignore you, and the fish suffer as a result. Taking into account human nature and trying to work with less than ideal circumstances, while working towards better ones, is an approach that seems far more humane to me, for the person and for the fish.

@AilyNC can testify to this. She trusted a fish stores advice, and had an uncycled tank and was losing fish, and was sold fish totally unsuitable for the tank she had. She certainly wasn't heartless or cruel, she was just given bad advice. If she'd been attacked and berated and told to just return them, I don't know what that would have done to her, but it certainly wouldn't have helped anyone, especially the fish. She was sold huge plecos that need hundreds of gallons of water, and she took the time and effort, despite being very attached to those fish already, to find an aquarium that would take them, a long drive away. Had she returned those plecos, I can almost guarantee they wouldn't have nearly such a good home. She worked her butt off with daily water changes and water testing to save her other fish, learned a ton, now has two beautiful tanks, and is a valuable member of the forum, all in the space of a few short months. She's a credit to the hobby, and has valuable experience to share with other people who were in her shoes.

Not to take credit or anything, but I was one of the people on her first thread, helping her, and the fact she cared and as willing to do whatever it took was clear as day. Had she been greeting with hostility and deridement, I doubt she'd want to be here and learn anymore.
 
@AdoraBelle Dearheart

Sorry, but I've read through that thread twice now. The fish were bought to amuse a child and then 'replaced with identical fish' when they died. That particular person definitely isn't "trying to get into the hobby" and that was pretty clearly stated. They were bought as an ornament/toy for the child.

You and I both know how much water change is going to be needed in an unfiltered 3.5 gallon tank, and I very much doubt that person or the child is going to keep on top of that, and even if they did it's going to be very bad for the fish.

Two have already died, two more will be dead within days. I'm sorry, but sometimes you just have to say "that's wrong". You cannot sow a silk purse from a Pig's ear.
 
I think the main point is encouragement and support. We learn and work best when we feel positive about a topic. Berating new comers will not help them to learn or provide a better environment for their fish. Instead they'll leave and likely continue to keep fish in bad set ups. I agree with first trying to stabilise the water conditions and secondly addressing the stocking issue. If I met hostility I wouldn't return to the forum & would feel shame in seeking help in future.

@AdoraBelle Dearheart absolutely deserves credit for basically fostering me and helping me with advice & encouragement I needed. Others too have showed endless patience with me. I never felt bad or stupid or scared to ask questions. That's absolutely the best approach because I can learn & grow as a fish keeper and strive to provide safer & better environments for them.

The fish and tank competitions run by @Fishmanic are great way to encourage work on our tanks beyond keeping fish alive - more positive encouragement.

As I've said before - the forum is what you make of it & you get back what you put in. More time engaging in positive and constructive conservation benefits us all
 
As to question of the Betta - if you like the fish then buy it. Haggling over price point isn't really a motivating factor I support. The seller has given their price. You want the fish or you don't.

Posting fish in correct packaging is much safer for short journey than a long one. Though if you're in London I'm sure you've loads of options for more local fish and it might be better to get fish locally in your situation.
 
As to question of the Betta - if you like the fish then buy it. Haggling over price point isn't really a motivating factor I support. The seller has given their price. You want the fish or you don't.

I think perhaps you have not read the entire thread. The price point has nothing to do with it. Yes it has been suggested in the thread, and I considered, asking for the fish to be sent to me for adoption, for postage fee alone and no charge for the fish, but that isn't anywhere near to being the core of the issue here. The issue is the deformity (or the deformities depending on what you make of the 'pitting' in the face), whether it's a serious health issue for the fish, or whether it's just cosmetic.
 
I think the main point is encouragement and support. We learn and work best when we feel positive about a topic. Berating new comers will not help them to learn or provide a better environment for their fish. Instead they'll leave and likely continue to keep fish in bad set ups. I agree with first trying to stabilise the water conditions and secondly addressing the stocking issue. If I met hostility I wouldn't return to the forum & would feel shame in seeking help in future.


I think the main point is the intentions of the person who is asking for help.

In this case, that person had no interest in learning to 'provide a better environment' for the fish. Read through that thread again and you will see exactly what I mean. They are only here because they are desperate to keep the fish alive for the kid's sake. Chucking the dead fish into the bin and replacing them like for like, in the same tank and conditions, I think shows a lack of respect for the fish and pretty much says it all. I think when it gets to that point you really have to say enough is enough.
 
I think perhaps you have not read the entire thread. The price point has nothing to do with it. Yes it has been suggested in the thread, and I considered, asking for the fish to be sent to me for adoption, for postage fee alone and no charge for the fish, but that isn't anywhere near to being the core of the issue here. The issue is the deformity (or the deformities depending on what you make of the 'pitting' in the face), whether it's a serious health issue for the fish, or whether it's just cosmetic.

If it's not a health issue then it's about whether you like the fish or not. None of us will be keeping it. I think you've shown a fondness or attachment so maybe get the fish. I thought the offer to adopt was a pricing issue apologies.
 
I think the main point is the intentions of the person who is asking for help.

In this case, that person had no interest in learning to 'provide a better environment' for the fish. Read through that thread again and you will see exactly what I mean. They are only here because they are desperate to keep the fish alive for the kid's sake. Chucking the dead fish into the bin and replacing them like for like, in the same tank and conditions, I think shows a lack of respect for the fish and pretty much says it all. I think when it gets to that point you really have to say enough is enough.

In that case best way to keep fish alive is to get a bigger tank. I'm not in that thread myself but my points about constructive criticism, positive engagement and encouragement stand :)
 
In that case best way to keep fish alive is to get a bigger tank. I'm not in that thread myself but my points about constructive criticism, positive engagement and encouragement stand :)

No, they don't. You didn't read either thread, but are throwing your tuppence in anyway.

As I said, if you read between the lines, the other 'fish-keeper' wasn't really interested in providing a suitable environment for the fish. They haven't even logged in in the last two days to check the responses to the thread, and judging by their last message, there is no way in hell that mess has been resolved in the last two days, unless the Guppies died.
 
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