Betta Sorority 30 Gallon Journal

[IHaveADogToo]

Hey all.

Today is the day I will be adding my female bettas to the 30 gallon I've prepared for them.

To stay organized, here are previous threads I have used to discuss this tank.

My introduction thread: http://www.fishforums.net/threads/greetings-from-missouri.448125/
When I replaced the light with LED:
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/led-strip-light-project-replacing-fluorescent-bulb.448134/

Moving forward, I will be using this thread for updates on this tank.

----

Anyone familiar with my previous posts is probably thinking, "What about your betta, Dart? Wasn't he in that 30 gallon? Don't you have guppies in there too?" Well, that was temporary. Dart has been moved back to his nano tank for the moment, but I am cycling a 10 gallon for him right now, and the nano tank he's in right now will become a hospital tank. As for the guppies... I removed them from the tank a few days after I removed Dart. When I removed Dart, the guppies were physically fine, but a couple of days later, I noticed one of them had scales missing from his head and he wasn't swimming right. I know Dart isn't to blame, as he was already in his nano tank when this happened, and it took me a few days to figure out what happened. I had to do a LOT of research and had to obsessively watch the guppies behavior to figure it out. But apparently, since I had 4 males, their bullying wasn't being evenly distributed. This one poor guppy was getting picked on by the other 3, and sometimes even being physically attacked. As these guppies were an impulse buy, and not compatible with my long term plan of putting bettas in the tank, I surrendered them to someone more readily equipped to care for them. I did not have another tank cycled, and as I had 4 males, I would have needed to buy 8 females to even out the aggression. I wasn't prepared to purchase a 15+ gallon tank and 8 females to correct the behavior of impulse-buy fish, so surrendering them to a LFS seemed appropriate. I was sad to let them go, but I knew it was for the best for me, and for the guppies. They now live in a community tank at the fish store. I was surprised to see that kind of aggression among guppies, but then again, this tank has been full of surprises.

So the current inhabitants of this tank are:
6 Kuhli Loaches
5 Albino Bronze Corydoras (Albino Cory Cats)
7(?) Ghost Shrimp (I never see more than 2 at a time so I'm not sure if any are dead)
12 Neon Tetras

I also have several rocks and caves and hiding places, and several plants. I have had to remove a few plants that didn't make it and were decaying in the water. They will be replaced this evening. I will also be replacing this 12 inch tall rock cave in the tank, because it's the fake coral design, and it does not go with anything in my tank. I've been going for a very natural, riverbed kind of look, and this coral cave doesn't fung with my shui. I bought the tank on Craigslist, and this coral cave came with it. So I've been using it because it was free, but today, it comes out. I'm thinking of replacing it with some large rock, or possibly driftwood, but I need something tall to help keep the sight-lines broken up in the tank.

Also, like I said above, today is the day I will be acquiring the girls for my sorority. Obviously, this is not a straight-up sorority, this is a community tank as well, with the Corys and Kuhlis and Tetras in it. On my way home from work today, I will be stopping by the pet store to pick out the girls, as well as get a replacement for that coral cave and maybe some more plants. I am looking for 5 or 6 girls. I have called all the local fish stores and nobody has sisters or could refer me to a local breeder. So I'm going to have to buy cup bettas from the pet store. Hopefully I can find 5 or 6 who are in good health. I'm also looking for more docile personalities. And cup bettas can be tricky with that, because it's hard to tell if a fish in a cup is just a chill personality or is lethargic due to illness. I'm almost certain there will be some trial and error. Thankfully, I'm off work all weekend and I can watch them closely, which I need to do anyway to make sure they establish a pecking order without any fatalities.
_____________

A few maintenance updates with the tank:

The LED strip was just too dark. I have since re-installed the fluorescent lamp assembly, but alongside the LED. I only run the LED now for the colors, or for supplemental light for the plants when I'm at work, and I use the fluorescent as my primary light source. I can't leave the fluorescent on while I'm at work because it gets too hot. On my shopping trip today, I'm also going to be picking up a timer, so I can run the fluorescent lamp on 3 or 4 hour intervals, giving enough time in between to cool down.

The output from the filter was causing way too much of a current in the water. It was so bad that I had the pump turned all the way down the majority of the time. As a result, the water has been slightly (just slightly) cloudy. If I turned the pump up at all, it would disturb the substrate, making the water even cloudier (I have sand substrate). But just yesterday I read a genius suggestion on here. The post was from like 2007 or 2008, otherwise I would have replied to it thanking them for their genius. It was the water bottle trick. I cut up a water bottle and stuck it on the filter's output, and it redirects the water down the back wall of the tank instead, allowing me to turn the pump all the way up without violently disturbing the water, substrate, or plants. The water became crystal clear in 5 minutes. Amazing. Also, since the current was reduced, my Corys have stopped spazzing and can now be found basking and lounging together. Until yesterday, I had never seen all 5 Corys bask together, but suddenly it's their favorite thing to do. Such a difference controlling the current made.

I am due for a water change, as well. So I may do that before putting the girls in. They'll be stressed enough from adjusting to their new environment and establishing territories and a pecking order. Doing a water change during that time of heightened stress is probably a bad idea. So I'll probably go on my shopping trip, buy the new decor and some plants and the girls, then go home and let the girls sit in their cups next to each other for an hour or so, constantly being rearranged so they can see each other from different angles (familiar faces), while I perform a water change and do the final touches on the tank. Of course, one of the first things I will do is change the water in the girls' cups, since they will still be in the cups for an hour for familiar faces, and another hour for acclimatization.

There will be lots and lots of pictures, and possibly video.

Stay tuned for updates.

 

[NickAu]

A sorority, excellent.

6 Kuhli Loaches
5 Albino Bronze Corydoras (Albino Cory Cats)
7(?) Ghost Shrimp (I never see more than 2 at a time so I'm not sure if any are dead)
12 Neon Tetras

I wouldnt keep the Tetras or similar shoaling / schooling fish in with the girls, it will stress them out too much.
Bottom dwellers like Kuhlis and small cories may or may not be fine it all depends on the girls.

How safe will your shrimp be? Who knows. My girls hunt for and eat Malaysian Trumpet Snails and Red Cherry Shrimp but do not bother the Kuhlis ( except for taking their food).

How are you planing to introduce them to each other? Normally I float a new betta in a breeding box for a few days so everybody gets to know each other.

Here's a problem you will encounter at feeding time ( Light on Lights off it dont matter when you put the food in. )

Hiding food under leaf litter, nope that don't work.

Even plants are on the menu.

Welcome to sorority betta keeping, theres never a dull moment.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

A sorority, excellent.


I wouldnt keep the Tetras or similar shoaling / schooling fish in with the girls, it will stress them out too much.
Bottom dwellers like Kuhlis and small cories may or may not be fine it all depends on the girls.

How safe will your shrimp be? Who knows. My girls hunt for and eat Malaysian Trumpet Snails and Red Cherry Shrimp but do not bother the Kuhlis ( except for taking their food).

How are you planing to introduce them to each other? Normally I float a new betta in a breeding box for a few days so everybody gets to know each other.

Here's a problem you will encounter at feeding time ( Light on Lights off it dont matter when you put the food in. )

You are the second person in two days to warn me against keeping Ghost Shrimp with Bettas. But I have now kept Ghost Shrimp and Bettas together successfully in (now) 3 tanks. Never a shrimp death I could attribute to a fish.

I introduced the girls to the tank on Friday and there has been no problems with Ghost Shrimp, or Tetras. As for the Kuhli loaches.... I tend to overfeed the bottom of the tank and underfeed the top. There's plenty of food to go around at the bottom of the tank, and yes, some food theft does happen, but there's always another bite within reach when that happens.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Okay I didn't get a whole lot of pictures but I did get some video.

I bought 6 female Bettas. Their names are:
Lucy, Mary, Carol, Roseanne, Reba, and Ellen

Yes, that's right, I named them after strong women of TV who's shows were named after them.

I got 5 from the PetSmart by my work, all but Ellen. I literally got the 5 healthiest looking ones. Two of the females I did not take home had a fungus around their gills. I saw it on some of the males too, and I made sure to let the staff know they had sick Bettas for sale, I pointed out the fungus, and the employee took them aside and said he would treat them. We'll see. But the ones I took home looked to be well, although two of them, Reba and Carol, had pretty pronounced stress lines. From being in cups their whole lives, I assume. I got 2 Veiltails; Lucy and Mary, and 3 Halfmoons; Carol, Roseanne, and Reba. They didn't have any crowntails in stock. Lucy is a little smaller than the others. It looks like she still has some growing to do, but I do think she's past adolescence, as I can clearly see her egg spot.

There's another PetSmart right by my house, too. So I stopped in there to see if they had any crowntail females in stock. And they do! In fact, the only females in stock at this location are crowntails. They had about 8 of them in stock. But only ONE of them was healthy. The other 7 all had the same fungus around the gills that I noticed on the Bettas at the other location by my work. Unfortunately, this one healthy looking crowntail is tiny in comparison to the others. Part of me thought "this poor fish is going to get picked on for being so tiny". But I took her home anyway, and named her Ellen. I let the employee know that every female Betta they had for sale was sick except the one I was buying, and they said they'd pull them from the shelf for treatment. (Of course, the next day I went in for supplies and all 7 of those sick girls were still on the shelf. I'm not prepared to run a mass-scale fish hospital, otherwise I would have taken them). Please keep in mind, I work 15 minutes from home. The 5 girls from PetSmart 1 were only in the car for a few minutes while I bought Ellen.

When I got home with the 6 girls, the first thing I did was put clean water in their cups, and set all 6 cups next to each other. I did final touches on my tank (replacing the coral cave, replacing dying plants) while the girls sat in their cups next to each other. Over the course of about an hour and a half, as I was working on the tank, I rearranged the cups several times, so the girls could all see each other from different angles. There was no flaring or any signs of aggression that I saw during this phase. I finished off my tank work with a water change, and then I started floating the girls. I floated all 6 cups at the same time, for about a half hour, frequently rearranging the cups like I did before. Again, I saw no flaring or signs of aggression, so after a half hour, I released all 6 of them into the tank at the same time.

I sat. And watched. For hours. Days, even.

It took a while before anyone started flaring. For about the first hour or so, the girls were just kind of exploring, and there's enough room for them to do that without being on top of each other. A few of them started claiming territories, but none of them ended up keeping the territories they claimed in the first hour. I was concerned about Lucy and Ellen, due to their size. Lucy is small, but has a pronounced egg spot. Ellen is even smaller than Lucy, though, and I couldn't really see her egg spot. I'm pretty sure Lucy is a young adult, and Ellen is still a juvenile. Over the course of the first several hours, Lucy found her place in the pecking order. Ellen, on the other hand.... she just kept hiding. And when any of the other girls would see Ellen, they would chase her relentlessly. All of the girls would pick on Ellen every time she would show herself, except for Lucy. I don't know why, but for some reason Lucy has no interest in bullying Ellen while the rest are very interested in it. Probably because she's small, too.

On day 1 (Friday) it looked like Reba was going to be the most dominant. She was chasing and flaring at everyone, very much exerting her dominance. Her stress lines faded a little bit, but were still very much there. Carol, looking to be the second most dominant, still had very pronounced stress lines as well. But nobody got violent. Nobody nipped at fins. Nobody locked jaws. Just some simple flaring and chasing. Except with Ellen. These girls HATED seeing her. If she crossed their view, especially Reba's view, she would get chased at high speeds until she found a place to squeeze into where the bigger fish couldn't get her. I ended up putting her in a breeder box overnight, for her safety. And she was so tiny and timid she didn't even try to run away from the net. There were a few times Reba or Carol tried to come at Lucy, but Mary protected her. Yes, that's right, the larger Veiltail, Mary, jumped in to protect the smaller Veiltail, Lucy. It was very interesting, I'd never seen a Betta defend another Betta like that. But by day 2, Mary was over it, and left Lucy to defend herself.

Saturday morning I let Ellen out of the breeder, to see if her time in the box had helped the girls adjust to her presence. Of course the first thing she did was hide. And she spent most of her time hidden throughout the day. When she would come out of hiding, the same behavior continued, of everyone but Lucy picking on her. Like I said above, Ellen is my only crowntail, and came from a different store location than the other 5. I think this might have something to do with why the girls can get along with Lucy, who's also small, but not her. In the store, these girls could see each other. They could see Lucy. God only knows how long they lived at the store in those cups, so they had more time to become comfortable with Lucy. I think that's why Lucy doesn't get picked on for her size, but Ellen does.

On day 2, (Saturday) it became apparent that Reba was NOT the most dominant. She's just the most show-boaty. Carol is the most dominant. Reba may be "louder" than Carol, but Carol can put Reba in her place, and I saw her do it a few times. Also, by day 2, Carol's stress stripes had faded away completely. Reba's stress stripes, on day 2, were still coming and going. NOBODY else had stress stripes. On this day, territory lines appeared to be drawn. And Roseanne chose a hiding place as her territory. I only saw her when she would venture beyond her territory, which as time goes on, became less and less frequent. By the evening, I couldn't find her anymore... until dinner time! You better believe she showed up when I dropped food in the tank. Then she'd eat and go back to her hiding place.

Saturday night I put Ellen in the breeder box again, but when I did that, Reba and Carol's stress stripes returned, and all of the girls, even Roseanne, came out and obsessed over the breeder box. I ended up letting Ellen back out, and the stress stripes vanished and everything was normal again. Yes, Ellen was still timid and hiding, but I could tell that putting her in the box really stressed them all out, and letting her out relieved that stress. Reluctantly, I left Ellen to freely swim in the tank with the others overnight.

Sunday morning I was pleased to see that everyone made it overnight, but little Ellen did look to have a few scales scraped, and was still hiding, and being chased relentlessly when she would come out. Finally, I admitted to myself that Ellen is indeed too young for the sorority tank. So I had to think quick. I didn't want to put her back in the cup of death and return her to the store to get gill fungus. So, I did a little rearranging.

My male Halfmoon, Dart, was temporarily sitting in a 2 gallon while a 10 gallon I just set up for him cycled. Well.... let's just say that 10 gallon is doing a fish-in cycle, now. I'm not happy about it, and I know I'm going to be doing like daily water changes in the 10 gallon, now, but you do what you gotta do. Ellen is in the 2 gallon until she grows enough to rejoin the sorority, if that's even an option. She's so tiny and cute and she's very curious. By herself, I finally got to see her personality. She's timid, yes, but not afraid of me. I'm hopeful that in a few months she can rejoin the sorority, but we'll see about that. I know I'd have to do a full tank rearrange and re-introduce all the girls again when that time comes if I have any hope of it working. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

As for the sorority, yes, I knew removing Ellen would make the stress lines return, and it did. But I wasn't very concerned about it messing with the pecking order or territory lines. And, to be honest, after about an hour, the sorority was fine again. I don't think they recognized Ellen as part of their group when she was in the tank with them. I don't think she had a place in the pecking order, and if she did, it was at the bottom.

By day 3, Carol's stress lines were completely gone, and only returned for a few moments after I removed Ellen from the tank. Reba's stress lines were finally fading away, too, but still visible from time to time. I did notice, however, that Reba's stress lines go away when she eats. I'll continue to keep an eye on her, but I think she's just slowly acclimating. She definitely had very prominent stress lines when I bought her, and even though they still appear, they aren't as pronounced anymore. So, she's slowly but surely starting to chill out. Roseanne, Mary, and Lucy are all chill. They don't even bicker with each other. Carol is definitely at the top of this pecking order. Reba is jealous and wants to be at the top, but Carol keeps taking her down a notch. It's funny, though, after Carol reminds Reba who's in charge, Reba goes and showboats for the other girls, as if to remind them that she's still above them. Both Carol and Reba will intentionally invade another girls' territory, just to exert their dominance, and the other girl evacuates, as if to say "Don't mind me, I was just leaving." Reba does this more often than Carol does, but they both do it, and if Reba does it to Carol, Carol reminds her of her place.

Roseanne's territory is somewhere at the bottom of the tank, in the back, hidden behind all my plants and decor. I can't see her territory. I have no idea where it is. She pretty much stays there the whole time, until meal time, then she's front and center. I suspect Roseanne may be the oldest one. Perhaps even an elder. I say this because of her coloring, size, and her scales, and of course her personality. When I bought her, she was almost metallic green, fins and body. Statue of Liberty color, almost. I just thought that was her color, but it's not. She's metallic baby blue with pink fins. It just took a couple days for her color to return. But even with her returned color, its not as vibrant as I would expect. She also has some scales missing, which adds to my suspicion she's older. These could be battle scars from fighting, or mating, or just from age. She does not have any visible wounds or defects other than a few missing scales, so my top suspicion is that she's just old. She's very chill. No, not lethargic, but if I were to describe her personality, I would say she's like an old person who just doesn't care about your crap.

Mary is very sweet. She enjoys spending time with Carol and Reba and especially Lucy, but takes no part in Carol and Reba's drama. She's definitely formed a bond with Lucy, the other veiltail. At first she was defending Lucy against the other girls. I haven't seen her do that since day 1, but she still spends the majority of her time with Lucy, and even allows Lucy to stay in her territory with her for extended periods of time, but will chase off anyone else.

Lucy *appears* to be at the bottom of this pecking order, but she has Mary wrapped around her finger (er... fin?). Lucy is also the next smallest after Ellen. She set up a territory in the dwarf hairgrass below the driftwood. She likes to swim in between the blades of grass, which helps her hide from Reba and Carol as they pass by, so they don't give her any crap. But, if they do enter her territory, she flees to Mary's territory. Lucy is not very defensive of her territory, probably due to her size, but everyone knows that is her area, and although they will pass through it and chase her off, nobody has tried to steal it permanently. They always move on a few minutes later and Lucy reclaims her area.

Sunday was also frozen pea day. So I'm due for another water change today.

I took video on Friday, when Carol and Reba's stress lines were still prominent, and Ellen was hiding.
Pictures didn't turn out so well. I'll try and get better pics.

Sorority Tank Day 1: https://www.youtube.com/embed/RFEWgyRXjxw?rel=0

Ellen: https://www.youtube.com/embed/CSHjFuhZerI?rel=0

 

[NickAu]

Everything looks great, Love the girls and I am glad they didn't end up with names like Kim ( Kardashian ) Brittany ( spears), Taylor ( swift ) Miley ( cyrus) and so on.

I think you need a few more plants.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Hey thanks NickAu!

Yeah, I agree, more plants are always needed. I've actually already added two more since the video. I'm really looking forward to them growing in. In time. I think you'd like how I set up my 10 gallon for Dart, though. I went with a lot less "decor" and a lot more plants.

Your tank is really nice. And although it is more densely planted, your plants also look a lot more mature. How long did it take for them to fill in like that?

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Quick question for the veteran sorority keepers out there:

If one of my girls falls ill, heaven forbid, and has to be quarantined, what can I expect in terms of removing her and re-introducing her to the tank? No, I don't have a sick fish right now, but I would like to know in case something should happen. If I remove one of the girls from the tank for treatment, will I need to remove all of the girls and rearrange the tank before I put her back in? If I keep the hospital tank right next to the sorority tank, will that help maintain the pecking order? Or would the pecking order be affected, even if I keep the sick fish within eyeshot of the sorority tank?

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Sad news.

One of the females has died.

I came home from work today, took the dog outside, and then grabbed blood worms from the freezer and some tweezers and started my tank walkthrough.

When I go to the sorority tank, I noticed little Lucy, the red veiltail, was nowhere to be found. All the other girls were dancing and begging for food, but no Lucy. I looked around in the tank, and it took me a few minutes, but I found her wedged between the leaves of a plant, motionless, colorless. I tapped her gently with the tweezers, and she floated up to the top, obviously dead. My heart broke.

I'm very sad to have found any dead fish in the tank, particularly this one. She was the smallest betta in the tank, as Ellen is still in her juvenile tank, but she was getting along with everyone as far as I saw. I have had the girls in the tank for now 12 days, and Lucy certainly did have a place in the pecking order.

In examining her body, I saw nothing out of the ordinary other than she had lost her color. Her formerly ginger-red body was now almost white. She also looked slightly swollen, but sometimes post-mortem swelling just happens. I don't know what time she died, but if it had been several hours that would explain the swelling and discoloration. She did not appear swollen last night when I last saw her, and her color was good. Her personality was not exceptionally out of the ordinary, except she was hiding more often than she used to. In caves, between plants, in tiny dark places. If she was being bullied when I wasn't around, that might explain this, but I mean I watch my tanks a lot and I saw no bullying. There was some chasing in the first two or three days, but nothing excessive, and by day 4 all of that had stopped. And her body showed no signs of damage. No fin tears, no damaged or missing scales. I didn't think to take a picture of her body, and it's gone now. Part of me thinks perhaps she was bullied to death because she was the smallest, but at the same time, I saw no evidence of physical damage to her body, and I never saw any signs of bullying or excessive chasing or anything. In fact, one of the other females, Mary, appeared to have bonded with Lucy, would sleep next to her, and even appeared to protect her against the other girls at times.

Since removing Lucy's body from the tank, I noticed the immediate return of both Carol and Reba's stress stripes, which I haven't seen in over a week. I'm about to change the water now. But, they know they're missing someone. They're all acting different now. And now I have 4 of them, which isn't even a sorority. I really should have 5 to help avoid fighting. I do have Ellen in her juvenile tank, and she is staying in that until she reaches maturity. But that will be a few months.

I'm confused on what to do next. I'm not even entirely sure why Lucy died. For all I know it could've been a parasite, or any number of internal diseases. Or it could've been social stress from being the smallest betta. Should I go out and get another betta to replace Lucy, and immediately bring the number of girls back up to 5? Should I just wait for Ellen to mature, and keep my sorority at 4 females until then? Like I said, the girls have been in this tank now for 12 days.

 

[NickAu]

Poor fishy.

These things happen sometimes fish die. Monitor the water conditions and the fish for anything out of the ordinary for a week or 2 and if everything is fine get another fish.

re-introducing her to the tank?

Put the fish in a breeder box and float it in the tank for a few days or till the fish jumps out to rejoin her friends.


https://www.petmountain.com/product/fish-breeding-tanks/11442-509785/lees-fish-net-breeder.html

 

[NickAu]

How long did it take for them to fill in like that?

The Anubias is about 3 years old, and the Crypts about 1 1/2 years old.

This was the tank 12 months ago

 

[IHaveADogToo]

These things happen sometimes fish die.

Especially when you buy them from cups in the pet store, I'm thinking.

The new girl is going to come from the fish store I got my kuhli loaches from, I think. I'll take your advice, though, and wait a week or 2. That sounds like a good idea. Thanks.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

A week later and there's an ich outbreak in the tank. I'm glad I waited and didn't get another betta yet.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

I think you need a few more plants.

Advice taken.