Beneficial Bacteria...

[coldcazzie]

I wonder how the beneficial bacteria survives in a bottle

Usually it doesn't. The one sbs was referring to was refrigerated and had a very short shelf life, hence why it was effective because the bacteria were suspended and could survive for a couple of months.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

I wonder how the beneficial bacteria survives in a bottle

They dont, simple.

You see alot of threads started by people who have been told to use such a product, usually followed by 'add your fish after 7 days...', nonsense.

What media, if any, could be used for freezing our beneficial bacteria though? Surely ceramic would be best, would sponge not go britte and snap with the slightest touch?

Terry.

 

[willowstwin]

I have a plan... I'm going to try and grow some cultures from my filter on a nice ammonia infused agar plate, then freeze that. Also see about freezing ceramic rings with tank water, and also a filter sponge. All with mild thawing... If anyone comes up with a scientific paper beforehand, then fantastic, but until then I can but try

 

[Geoff-]

I wonder how the beneficial bacteria survives in a bottle

as above for the most part they don't. Seachem claim that their stability product contains spores, not live bacteria, and if that's the case then their product is quite plausible. Spores can survive for ages until living conditions are right.

 

[Scott MacAdam]

Last time I went to cycle a tank I found that my LFS doesn't carry ammonia but instead a "bilogical supplement" named cycle. It's a bottle of liquid, apparently it's the bacteria preserved in some liquid. Worked fine.

 

[raptorrex]

Morning all, hope this thread finds you all well.

So, as the topic says... would it be possible to freeze beneficial bacteria for the purpose of new fishkeepers or yourself?

Certain bacteria 'sleep' when frozen..hence the reason we always have to be careful when defrosting, preparing and cooking fish, poultry and certain red meats, with the cooking process killing them off. I understand we are talking about a different 'type' of bacteria with reagrds to those we need in our filters, but wouldn't the theory be the same?

I have looked into this topic on a couple of occasions, but not really found anything or anyone that could prove or dismiss otherwise.

Any thoughts highly appreciated.
Terry.

PS..i don't intend carrying out this process, it's simply a theory that has been bugging me for a couple of weeks

I think the method of freezing will be important, here.
if the ice crystals formed are too large, they will puncture the cell membrane of the bacteria. (this is why food deteriorates, when frozen.)

home freezers are slow, in comparison, forming large ice crystals.

freezing with liquid CO2 or, if you are brave, liquid nitrogen, will give you small crystals.

this might seem like a little thing, even "picky". but the most important thing here, is to have viable bacteria after, freezing.

much faster freezing, is the key. we need to be certain, the bacteria is alive, after defrosting.

then, we can look and see if the idea works.

 

[Athena]

Very interesting thread!

Some new model freezers have a great "fast freeze" section these days. You're supposed to put your food in there first, then transfer it to the other drawers once it's frozen. I wonder if that would work quick enough for the bacteria?

Athena

 

[Geoff-]

I was doing some more reading yesterday and common references seemed to suggest that freezing the bacteria that lives in aquariums will kill them.

 

[raptorrex]

I was doing some more reading yesterday and common references seemed to suggest that freezing the bacteria that lives in aquariums will kill them.

it would still be worth looking into the possibility, that not all freezing methods would!

@Athena. cant really find the Fast Freeze temperature of home freezers. ( i'll bet they are all different). but commercial Fast Freeze is a -32c. I'm not sure it would make enough difference to help.
i was thinking more than twice that. dry ice -78c

to freeze live complex organisms, we us liquid Nitrogen, somewhere between -196 and -210c

but the only way to find out is try.

only problem left then is. how do you judge how well it works?
do you cycle at tank. or actually look for surviving bacteria?

 

[StandbySetting]

I was doing some more reading yesterday and common references seemed to suggest that freezing the bacteria that lives in aquariums will kill them.

Please share these.

Raptorex pretty much hits the nail on the head, freezing rate matters.

 

[Fishy friend2]

So you can freeze beneficial bacteria

 

[Geoff-]

I was doing some more reading yesterday and common references seemed to suggest that freezing the bacteria that lives in aquariums will kill them.

Please share these.

One was here, although on second reading they said freeze-drying
http/www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

It is the drying component that kills them, they may survive ordinary freezing but would need to be tested. The bacteria don't form spores though, which makes it interesting in regard to Seachem Stability which claims its bacteria strains are in a spore state. Maybe Stability uses different bacteria to start a cycle and then the common ones eventually take over?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Those who posted that the cycling bacteria do and can not survive in a bottle are 100 Incorrect. They can and do survive from between 6 and 12 months. However, two things will kille them for sure- heat and cold. You can not freeze the specific bacteria needed for a cycled tank.

I will once again post the information:

A common misconception about bacteria in general is that they die if they are not fed. From a human being point of view this sounds perfectly reasonable: if you don't eat, you die. However, bacteria are not human beings. Bacteria operate much differently than people and have a variety of ways to deal with those times when resources are not available for them to grow and reproduce. Some bacteria when stressed (from say lack of nutrients) form spores and go into a resting stage waiting for conditions to improve. Nitrifiers do not form spores but have other mechanisms to deal with nutrient deficient periods. For nitrifiers, one way to deal with stressful conditions is to forming a protective 'shield" called EPS. EPS stands for extracellular polymeric substances and is, in simplistic terms, an organic protective shield that research shows inhibits various organisms from attacking and breaking open the cell wall of nitrifiers. Nitrifiers belong to a very old line of bacteria (millions of years) and they have developed ways to cope with very long periods of "drought". Because the nitrifiers in DrTim's One & Only are grown on a substrate they can form EPS when needed and last 6 to 12 months in a bottle.

From http/www.drtimsaqu...ndOnlyFAQs.html

While the bacteria's lifespan in a bottle can be increased by almost 100% if it is kept at 50F, freezing will kill them.

 

[the_lock_man]

Those who posted that the cycling bacteria do and can not survive in a bottle are 100 Incorrect. They can and do survive from between 6 and 12 months. However, two things will kille them for sure- heat and cold. You can not freeze the specific bacteria needed for a cycled tank.

I will once again post the information:

A common misconception about bacteria in general is that they die if they are not fed. From a human being point of view this sounds perfectly reasonable: if you don't eat, you die. However, bacteria are not human beings. Bacteria operate much differently than people and have a variety of ways to deal with those times when resources are not available for them to grow and reproduce. Some bacteria when stressed (from say lack of nutrients) form spores and go into a resting stage waiting for conditions to improve. Nitrifiers do not form spores but have other mechanisms to deal with nutrient deficient periods. For nitrifiers, one way to deal with stressful conditions is to forming a protective 'shield" called EPS. EPS stands for extracellular polymeric substances and is, in simplistic terms, an organic protective shield that research shows inhibits various organisms from attacking and breaking open the cell wall of nitrifiers. Nitrifiers belong to a very old line of bacteria (millions of years) and they have developed ways to cope with very long periods of "drought". Because the nitrifiers in DrTim's One & Only are grown on a substrate they can form EPS when needed and last 6 to 12 months in a bottle.

From http/www.drtimsaqu...ndOnlyFAQs.html

While the bacteria's lifespan in a bottle can be increased by almost 100% if it is kept at 50F, freezing will kill them.

Is there any independent verification of this?

 

[raptorrex]

Those who posted that the cycling bacteria do and can not survive in a bottle are 100 Incorrect. They can and do survive from between 6 and 12 months. However, two things will kille them for sure- heat and cold. You can not freeze the specific bacteria needed for a cycled tank.

I will once again post the information:

A common misconception about bacteria in general is that they die if they are not fed. From a human being point of view this sounds perfectly reasonable: if you don't eat, you die. However, bacteria are not human beings. Bacteria operate much differently than people and have a variety of ways to deal with those times when resources are not available for them to grow and reproduce. Some bacteria when stressed (from say lack of nutrients) form spores and go into a resting stage waiting for conditions to improve. Nitrifiers do not form spores but have other mechanisms to deal with nutrient deficient periods. For nitrifiers, one way to deal with stressful conditions is to forming a protective 'shield" called EPS. EPS stands for extracellular polymeric substances and is, in simplistic terms, an organic protective shield that research shows inhibits various organisms from attacking and breaking open the cell wall of nitrifiers. Nitrifiers belong to a very old line of bacteria (millions of years) and they have developed ways to cope with very long periods of "drought". Because the nitrifiers in DrTim's One & Only are grown on a substrate they can form EPS when needed and last 6 to 12 months in a bottle.

From http/www.drtimsaqu...ndOnlyFAQs.html

While the bacteria's lifespan in a bottle can be increased by almost 100% if it is kept at 50F, freezing will kill them.

though we know the type. we do not know the exact bacteria we use. we dont, even, know if its the same bacteria in every tank, or just the same family either..
so we do not know if the bacteria will die, or not, when frozen. or, if it will survive the de-frost.

as for the link?
lol. sales waffle, dressed up as SCIENCE.
it may turn out to be true. but nobody is close to knowing for a fact, yet.

one thing we do know is. only heat is guaranteed, almost, to kill bacteria. (so much for the link info)
cold, for the most part, only suspends their function.
freezing, as opposed to cold, kills them because of the crystal size.
for instance, frozen bloodworm it high in bacteria.( actually bloodworm of any type) high enough for it to be avoided by dedicated cray/invert keepers.

whilst its true, some bacteria can survive with on nutrition. there is no evidence that its true for 'OUR' type.

if what the link says it true. why are there not many 'instant cycle' products. and, more importantly, why none that work?