Beneficial Bacteria...

[StandbySetting]

The species that change ammonia into nitrite (Nitrospira) are from the same family, they're also from the same genus, same applies for the nitrite to nitrate (Nitrosomonas) bacteria too, the two genera may not be from the same family or order, but previous products have shown that it is possible to keep bacteria alive by refrigerating them.

There used to be products that work (biospira), but they were discontinued, I've heard reports that people have had great success with Dr. Tims products, they're not just your average snake oil products such as Nutrafin Cycle. Biospira was refrigerated and there were both freshwater and marine products.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

raptorrex-

Yes the bacteria are known. Dr. Timothy Hovanec et al are the people responsible. Since you clearly have not done any research about Dr. Hovanec or his work before making statements that were completely devoid of fact, I will do the work for you and give you the information you claimed does not exist.

The abstract of each paper is presented to give you a quick review of the paper. All the articles are copyrighted and may not be reprinted or copied in any fashion without the written consent of the copyright holder.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec. Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Dec. 2001, p. 5791-5800. Link to paper.

Abstract: Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration. Surveys of cloned rRNA genes from the enrichments revealed four major strains of AOB which were phylogenetically related to the Nitrosomonas marina cluster, the Nitrosospira cluster, or the Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster of the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. Ammonia concentration in the reactors determined which AOB strain dominated in an enrichment. Oligonucleotide probes and PCR primer sets specific for the four AOB strains were developed and used to confirm the presence of the AOB strains in the enrichments. Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established. Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB were 2% or less of the cells detected by fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis in aquaria in which nitrification was well established.


Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264. Link to paper.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.


Hovanec, T. A. and E. F. DeLong. 1996. Comparative Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria Associated with Freshwater and Marine Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 62, No. 8: 2888-2896. Link to paper.

Abstract: Three nucleic acid probes, two for autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria of the beta subdivision of the class Proteobacteria and one for alpha subdivision nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, were developed and used to study nitrifying bacterial phylotypes associated with various freshwater and seawater aquarium biofilters. Nitrosomonas europaea and related species were detected in all nitrifying seawater systems, and accounted for as much as 20% of the total eubacterial rRNA. In contrast, nitrifying bacteria belonging to the beta Proteobacterial subdivision were detected in only two samples from freshwater aquaria showing vigorous nitrification rates. rRNA originating from nitrite-oxidizing alpha subdivision Proteobacteria was not detected in samples from either aquarium environment. The data obtained indicates that chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidation in the freshwater aquaria was not due to beta Proteobacterial phylotypes related to the genus Nitrosomonas, and their close relatives, the organisms usually implicated in freshwater nitrification. It is likely that nitrification in natural environments is even more complex than nitrification in these simple systems and is less well characterized with regard to the microorganisms responsible.

Dr. Hovanec is one of, if not the, world's preminent Ph.Ds on this subject. He is also an avid fishkeeper who is a past President and the current Treasurer of the American Cichlid Association ACA . When he says that freezing will kill these specific bacteria, it can be taken as fact.

Nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to environment conditions – even when the bacteria in the bottle are the correct species there are certain environment conditions that harm and even kill the bacteria while they are in the bottle leading to their inability to accelerate the establishment of nitrification. The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It don’t matter the brand – freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.

From http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/Blog_twitter.html

Just because a person makes a living/profit from their knowledge does not mean that knowledge is worthless. The next time your doctor prescribes a medication, maybe you should not take it since it was likely discovered by doctors and scientist who are employed by the company selling it. So those doctors and scientists are making money from that medication- ie it helps to pay their salaries.

Now, if you can provide a link or links to the published, peer reviewed research articles you have written on this topic which refute the work of Dr. Hovanec and his associates, I would be happy to read them and to make a public apology to you in this forum.

 

[raptorrex]

raptorrex-

Yes the bacteria are known. Dr. Timothy Hovanec et al are the people responsible. Since you clearly have not done any research about Dr. Hovanec or his work before making statements that were completely devoid of fact, I will do the work for you and give you the information you claimed does not exist.

The abstract of each paper is presented to give you a quick review of the paper. All the articles are copyrighted and may not be reprinted or copied in any fashion without the written consent of the copyright holder.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec. Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Dec. 2001, p. 5791-5800. Link to paper.

Abstract: Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration. Surveys of cloned rRNA genes from the enrichments revealed four major strains of AOB which were phylogenetically related to the Nitrosomonas marina cluster, the Nitrosospira cluster, or the Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster of the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. Ammonia concentration in the reactors determined which AOB strain dominated in an enrichment. Oligonucleotide probes and PCR primer sets specific for the four AOB strains were developed and used to confirm the presence of the AOB strains in the enrichments. Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established. Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB were 2% or less of the cells detected by fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis in aquaria in which nitrification was well established.


Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264. Link to paper.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.


Hovanec, T. A. and E. F. DeLong. 1996. Comparative Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria Associated with Freshwater and Marine Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 62, No. 8: 2888-2896. Link to paper.

Abstract: Three nucleic acid probes, two for autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria of the beta subdivision of the class Proteobacteria and one for alpha subdivision nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, were developed and used to study nitrifying bacterial phylotypes associated with various freshwater and seawater aquarium biofilters. Nitrosomonas europaea and related species were detected in all nitrifying seawater systems, and accounted for as much as 20% of the total eubacterial rRNA. In contrast, nitrifying bacteria belonging to the beta Proteobacterial subdivision were detected in only two samples from freshwater aquaria showing vigorous nitrification rates. rRNA originating from nitrite-oxidizing alpha subdivision Proteobacteria was not detected in samples from either aquarium environment. The data obtained indicates that chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidation in the freshwater aquaria was not due to beta Proteobacterial phylotypes related to the genus Nitrosomonas, and their close relatives, the organisms usually implicated in freshwater nitrification. It is likely that nitrification in natural environments is even more complex than nitrification in these simple systems and is less well characterized with regard to the microorganisms responsible.

Dr. Hovanec is one of, if not the, world's preminent Ph.Ds on this subject. He is also an avid fishkeeper who is a past President and the current Treasurer of the American Cichlid Association ACA . When he says that freezing will kill these specific bacteria, it can be taken as fact.

Nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to environment conditions – even when the bacteria in the bottle are the correct species there are certain environment conditions that harm and even kill the bacteria while they are in the bottle leading to their inability to accelerate the establishment of nitrification. The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It don't matter the brand – freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.

From http/www.drtimsaqu...og_twitter.html

Just because a person makes a living/profit from their knowledge does not mean that knowledge is worthless. The next time your doctor prescribes a medication, maybe you should not take it since it was likely discovered by doctors and scientist who are employed by the company selling it. So those doctors and scientists are making money from that medication- ie it helps to pay their salaries.

Now, if you can provide a link or links to the published, peer reviewed research articles you have written on this topic which refute the work of Dr. Hovanec and his associates, I would be happy to read them and to make a public apology to you in this forum.

humm, his products still dont work. so i see no reason to take his view, as CORRECT. until its corroborated its no more than HIS THOUGHTS. (if your terms are too narrow, in research,. its often worse than doing none.)
you can throw all the 'sales guff', at me you like. untill someone eles agrees, its worthless.

@standby
"people have had great success with DR Tims products." yet it is discontinued??
as one of fishkeepings HOLY GRAILS", why would a 'successful' product, FAIL?
Err, because it wasn't!
I know we know the family, but we are no closer to knowing if, even, its the same bacteria (exactly) performing the task, in all tanks. or just, an adapted, strain from one of its branches. or indeed, adapted strains.
this could be one of the reasons 'bottled cycle' has, limited success. its possible we all have a, related, but different bugs, doing the job. possibly dictated by environmental conditions.

 

[raptorrex]

raptorrex-

Yes the bacteria are known. Dr. Timothy Hovanec et al are the people responsible. Since you clearly have not done any research about Dr. Hovanec or his work before making statements that were completely devoid of fact, I will do the work for you and give you the information you claimed does not exist.

The abstract of each paper is presented to give you a quick review of the paper. All the articles are copyrighted and may not be reprinted or copied in any fashion without the written consent of the copyright holder.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec. Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Dec. 2001, p. 5791-5800. Link to paper.

Abstract: Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration. Surveys of cloned rRNA genes from the enrichments revealed four major strains of AOB which were phylogenetically related to the Nitrosomonas marina cluster, the Nitrosospira cluster, or the Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster of the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. Ammonia concentration in the reactors determined which AOB strain dominated in an enrichment. Oligonucleotide probes and PCR primer sets specific for the four AOB strains were developed and used to confirm the presence of the AOB strains in the enrichments. Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established. Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB were 2% or less of the cells detected by fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis in aquaria in which nitrification was well established.


Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264. Link to paper.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.


Hovanec, T. A. and E. F. DeLong. 1996. Comparative Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria Associated with Freshwater and Marine Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 62, No. 8: 2888-2896. Link to paper.

Abstract: Three nucleic acid probes, two for autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria of the beta subdivision of the class Proteobacteria and one for alpha subdivision nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, were developed and used to study nitrifying bacterial phylotypes associated with various freshwater and seawater aquarium biofilters. Nitrosomonas europaea and related species were detected in all nitrifying seawater systems, and accounted for as much as 20% of the total eubacterial rRNA. In contrast, nitrifying bacteria belonging to the beta Proteobacterial subdivision were detected in only two samples from freshwater aquaria showing vigorous nitrification rates. rRNA originating from nitrite-oxidizing alpha subdivision Proteobacteria was not detected in samples from either aquarium environment. The data obtained indicates that chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidation in the freshwater aquaria was not due to beta Proteobacterial phylotypes related to the genus Nitrosomonas, and their close relatives, the organisms usually implicated in freshwater nitrification. It is likely that nitrification in natural environments is even more complex than nitrification in these simple systems and is less well characterized with regard to the microorganisms responsible.

Dr. Hovanec is one of, if not the, world's preminent Ph.Ds on this subject. He is also an avid fishkeeper who is a past President and the current Treasurer of the American Cichlid Association ACA . When he says that freezing will kill these specific bacteria, it can be taken as fact.

Nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to environment conditions – even when the bacteria in the bottle are the correct species there are certain environment conditions that harm and even kill the bacteria while they are in the bottle leading to their inability to accelerate the establishment of nitrification. The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It don't matter the brand – freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.

From http/www.drtimsaqu...og_twitter.html

Just because a person makes a living/profit from their knowledge does not mean that knowledge is worthless. The next time your doctor prescribes a medication, maybe you should not take it since it was likely discovered by doctors and scientist who are employed by the company selling it. So those doctors and scientists are making money from that medication- ie it helps to pay their salaries.

Now, if you can provide a link or links to the published, peer reviewed research articles you have written on this topic which refute the work of Dr. Hovanec and his associates, I would be happy to read them and to make a public apology to you in this forum.

more importantly, can you provide the same, from another source to support DR Tims view? go on, just one.
humm, as his products still dont work. so i see no reason to take his view, as CORRECT. until its corroborated its no more than HIS THOUGHTS. (if your terms are too narrow, in research,. its often worse than doing none.)
you can throw all the 'sales guff', at me you like. until someone else agrees, its worthless.

@standby
"people have had great success with DR Tims products." yet it is discontinued??
as one of fishkeepings HOLY GRAILS", why would a 'successful' product, FAIL?
Err, because it wasn't!
I know we know the family, but we are no closer to knowing if, even, its the same bacteria (exactly) performing the task, in all tanks. or just, an adapted, strain from one of its branches. or indeed, adapted strains.
this could be one of the reasons 'bottled cycle' has, limited success. its possible we all have a, related, but different bugs, doing the job. possibly dictated by environmental conditions.

 

[StandbySetting]

How can you say a product doesn't work with nothing to support that it doesn't work? Biospira was discontinued, not the Dr.Tim products. The reason for it being discontinued I do not know, but it was probably that there was no demand for it. The product didn't fail.

Raptorex, bacteria that come from the same genus are almost identical genetically, so the conditions they require are going to be pretty similar, it doesn't matter which species is in one of our tanks, it could be one or a combination of any of the following:
N. aestuarii
N. communis
N. europaea
N. eutropha
N. halophila
N. marina
N. nitrosa
N. oligotropha
N. ureae

Now they all perform the same job, they oxidize ammonia to nitrite, so why should it matter which species we have? They're clearly identifiable at lab level, so if you know the needs for just one species you can create ideal conditions regardless of whether or not the conditions are suitable for the other species. I'd find information for you to read on Biospira but it was discontinued so long ago that it is not possible, but you have my word and that of other hobbyists that used it years ago, not scientific, but it worked for far too many people for it to be non-viable.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

raptorex-

1. Do you understand what the term peer reviewed journal means?

Peer-reviewed journals (also called refereed journals) are scholarly journals that only publish articles that have passed through this review process. The review process helps ensure that the published articles reflect solid scholarship in their fields.

In this process anonymous researchers and credentialed experts review the article before it can be published. If they can find any flaws in the methodology or conclusions, the article will not pass the review and will not be published. So Dr. hovanecs works has indeed been endorsed by others.

2. Do you understand the most universities will not grant a Ph.D. for "crap science"?

Look up where Dr. Hovanec and all his co-authors obtained their degrees.

3. Did you click through and read the entire articles?

4. Did you bother to research the credentials of Dr. Hovanec or any of his co-authors?

5. Do you have any idea what the Applied and Environmental Microbiology is?

• #1 cited journal in Microbiology and #1 in Biotechnology & Applied Microbiology, with nearly 78,000 citations
• #1 journal in Microbiology and #2 in Biotechnology & Applied Microbiology ranked by Eigenfactor score

more importantly, can you provide the same, from another source to support DR Tims view? go on, just one

Yes- lets start with a co author of all 3 articles I cited above, Edward F. Delong

Washington, DC—February 10, 2009—The 2009 American Society for Microbiology (ASM) D.C. White Research and Mentoring Award is being presented to Edward F. DeLong, Ph.D., professor, Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering and Division of Biological Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This award honors the late David C. White, who was known for his interdisciplinary scientific approach and for being a dedicated and inspiring mentor. Dr. DeLong, a Fellow of the American Academy of Microbiology, is known as being one of the first marine microbiologists to apply novel molecular genetic methods to address fundamental ecological questions.

Or maybe you would like to argue Dr. Delong has no standing either?

Or How about the citation list for the 1998 paper, all of these folks think the research is credible.

[size="+2"] This article has been cited by other articles:[/size]

• Pratscher, J., Dumont, M. G., Conrad, R. (2011). Ammonia oxidation coupled to CO2 fixation by archaea and bacteria in an agricultural soil. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 108: 4170-4175 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Juhler, S., Revsbech, N. P., Schramm, A., Herrmann, M., Ottosen, L. D. M., Nielsen, L. P. (2009). Distribution and Rate of Microbial Processes in an Ammonia-Loaded Air Filter Biofilm. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 75: 3705-3713 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Chandran, K., Love, N. G. (2008). Physiological State, Growth Mode, and Oxidative Stress Play a Role in Cd(II)-Mediated Inhibition of Nitrosomonas europaea 19718. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 74: 2447-2453 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Freitag, T. E., Chang, L., Clegg, C. D., Prosser, J. I. (2005). Influence of Inorganic Nitrogen Management Regime on the Diversity of Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria in Agricultural Grassland Soils. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 8323-8334 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Hoefel, D., Monis, P. T., Grooby, W. L., Andrews, S., Saint, C. P. (2005). Culture-Independent Techniques for Rapid Detection of Bacteria Associated with Loss of Chloramine Residual in a Drinking Water System. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 6479-6488 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Collins, G., O'Connor, L., Mahony, T., Gieseke, A., de Beer, D., O'Flaherty, V. (2005). Distribution, Localization, and Phylogeny of Abundant Populations of Crenarchaeota in Anaerobic Granular Sludge. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 7523-7527 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Lam, P., Cowen, J. P. (2004). Processing Deep-Sea Particle-Rich Water Samples for Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization: Consideration of Storage Effects, Preservation, and Sonication. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 70: 25-33 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Cebron, A., Berthe, T., Garnier, J. (2003). Nitrification and Nitrifying Bacteria in the Lower Seine River and Estuary (France). Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 7091-7100 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Egli, K., Langer, C., Siegrist, H.-R., Zehnder, A. J. B., Wagner, M., van der Meer, J. R. (2003). Community Analysis of Ammonia and Nitrite Oxidizers during Start-Up of Nitritation Reactors. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 3213-3222 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Thimm, T., Tebbe, C. C. (2003). Protocol for Rapid Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization of Bacteria in Cryosections of Microarthropods. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 2875-2878 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Ihssen, J., Horn, M. A., Matthies, C., Gossner, A., Schramm, A., Drake, H. L. (2003). N2O-Producing Microorganisms in the Gut of the Earthworm Aporrectodea caliginosa Are Indicative of Ingested Soil Bacteria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 1655-1661 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Bollmann, A., Bar-Gilissen, M.-J., Laanbroek, H. J. (2002). Growth at Low Ammonium Concentrations and Starvation Response as Potential Factors Involved in Niche Differentiation among Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 4751-4757 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Briones, A. M., Okabe, S., Umemiya, Y., Ramsing, N.-B., Reichardt, W., Okuyama, H. (2002). Influence of Different Cultivars on Populations of Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria in the Root Environment of Rice. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 3067-3075 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Regan, J. M., Harrington, G. W., Noguera, D. R. (2002). Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 73-81 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Dionisi, H. M., Layton, A. C., Harms, G., Gregory, I. R., Robinson, K. G., Sayler, G. S. (2002). Quantification of Nitrosomonas oligotropha-Like Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria and Nitrospira spp. from Full-Scale Wastewater Treatment Plants by Competitive PCR. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 245-253 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Burrell, P. C., Phalen, C. M., Hovanec, T. A. (2001). Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 5791-5800 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Daims, H., Nielsen, J. L., Nielsen, P. H., Schleifer, K.-H., Wagner, M. (2001). In Situ Characterization of Nitrospira-Like Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria Active in Wastewater Treatment Plants. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 5273-5284 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Oved, T., Shaviv, A., Goldrath, T., Mandelbaum, R. T., Minz, D. (2001). Influence of Effluent Irrigation on Community Composition and Function of Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria in Soil. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 3426-3433 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Gieseke, A., Purkhold, U., Wagner, M., Amann, R., Schramm, A. (2001). Community Structure and Activity Dynamics of Nitrifying Bacteria in a Phosphate-Removing Biofilm. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 1351-1362 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Davey, M. E., O'toole, G. A. (2000). Microbial Biofilms: from Ecology to Molecular Genetics. Microbiol. Mol. Biol. Rev. 64: 847-867 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Cottrell, M. T., Kirchman, D. L. (2000). Community Composition of Marine Bacterioplankton Determined by 16S rRNA Gene Clone Libraries and Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 66: 5116-5122 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Purkhold, U., Pommerening-Roser, A., Juretschko, S., Schmid, M. C., Koops, H.-P., Wagner, M. (2000). Phylogeny of All Recognized Species of Ammonia Oxidizers Based on Comparative 16S rRNA and amoA Sequence Analysis: Implications for Molecular Diversity Surveys. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 66: 5368-5382 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Bartosch, S., Wolgast, I., Spieck, E., Bock, E. (1999). Identification of Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria with Monoclonal Antibodies Recognizing the Nitrite Oxidoreductase. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 4126-4133 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Schramm, A., de Beer, D., van den Heuvel, J. C., Ottengraf, S., Amann, R. (1999). Microscale Distribution of Populations and Activities of Nitrosospira and Nitrospira spp. along a Macroscale Gradient in a Nitrifying Bioreactor: Quantification by In Situ Hybridization and the Use of Microsensors. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 3690-3696 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Okabe, S., Satoh, H., Watanabe, Y. (1999). In Situ Analysis of Nitrifying Biofilms as Determined by In Situ Hybridization and the Use of Microelectrodes. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 3182-3191 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Lee, N., Nielsen, P. H., Andreasen, K. H., Juretschko, S., Nielsen, J. L., Schleifer, K.-H., Wagner, M. (1999). Combination of Fluorescent In Situ Hybridization and Microautoradiography---a New Tool for Structure-Function Analyses in Microbial Ecology. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 1289-1297 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Santegoeds, C. M., Ferdelman, T. G., Muyzer, G., de Beer, D. (1998). Structural and Functional Dynamics of Sulfate-Reducing Populations in Bacterial Biofilms. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 64: 3731-3739 [Abstract] [Full Text]

from http/aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/9/3480

I could go on providing all sorts of answers which apparently you were too lazy to look for yourself. But I think it would be boring to cite 100s more reasons why almost anything you have said in this thread is totally devoid of truth or factual basis.

"people have had great success with DR Tims products." yet it is discontinued??
as one of fishkeepings HOLY GRAILS", why would a 'successful' product, FAIL?
Err, because it wasn't!

The product did not fail and is not discontinued- so here again you have not got a clue. Moreover there are a number of public aquariums who have used his product and endorsed it. Now what would they know having to cycle tanks holding tens of thousands of gallons. They are listed on Dr. Hovanec's site.

I think you would be best served by not posting on topics which you clearly know nothing about, which you have never researched in a lab yourself and for which you have no credentials to comment on. Moreover, it is patently obvious that you never even bothered to do any investigation of any kind before you posted the things you did.

I am sorry if I seem harsh in this but I hate it when people, who really are totally unqualified, make statements of fact which are 100% wrong.

I am still waiting for you to post links to your peer reviewed articles on microbiology or to state where you earned your graduate degrees in Microbiology if you would like me to retract all I have said. Heck, post even one link to any peer reviewed research which in any way refutes the conclusions of the three articles above by Dr. Hovanec et. al. and I will issue an effusive apology.

 

[raptorrex]

raptorex-

1. Do you understand what the term peer reviewed journal means?

Peer-reviewed journals (also called refereed journals) are scholarly journals that only publish articles that have passed through this review process. The review process helps ensure that the published articles reflect solid scholarship in their fields.

In this process anonymous researchers and credentialed experts review the article before it can be published. If they can find any flaws in the methodology or conclusions, the article will not pass the review and will not be published. So Dr. hovanecs works has indeed been endorsed by others.

2. Do you understand the most universities will not grant a Ph.D. for "crap science"?

Look up where Dr. Hovanec and all his co-authors obtained their degrees.

3. Did you click through and read the entire articles?

4. Did you bother to research the credentials of Dr. Hovanec or any of his co-authors?

5. Do you have any idea what the Applied and Environmental Microbiology is?

• #1 cited journal in Microbiology and #1 in Biotechnology & Applied Microbiology, with nearly 78,000 citations
• #1 journal in Microbiology and #2 in Biotechnology & Applied Microbiology ranked by Eigenfactor score

more importantly, can you provide the same, from another source to support DR Tims view? go on, just one

Yes- lets start with a co author of all 3 articles I cited above, Edward F. Delong

Washington, DC—February 10, 2009—The 2009 American Society for Microbiology (ASM) D.C. White Research and Mentoring Award is being presented to Edward F. DeLong, Ph.D., professor, Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering and Division of Biological Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This award honors the late David C. White, who was known for his interdisciplinary scientific approach and for being a dedicated and inspiring mentor. Dr. DeLong, a Fellow of the American Academy of Microbiology, is known as being one of the first marine microbiologists to apply novel molecular genetic methods to address fundamental ecological questions.

Or maybe you would like to argue Dr. Delong has no standing either?

Or How about the citation list for the 1998 paper, all of these folks think the research is credible.

[size="+2"] This article has been cited by other articles:[/size]

• Pratscher, J., Dumont, M. G., Conrad, R. (2011). Ammonia oxidation coupled to CO2 fixation by archaea and bacteria in an agricultural soil. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 108: 4170-4175 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Juhler, S., Revsbech, N. P., Schramm, A., Herrmann, M., Ottosen, L. D. M., Nielsen, L. P. (2009). Distribution and Rate of Microbial Processes in an Ammonia-Loaded Air Filter Biofilm. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 75: 3705-3713 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Chandran, K., Love, N. G. (2008). Physiological State, Growth Mode, and Oxidative Stress Play a Role in Cd(II)-Mediated Inhibition of Nitrosomonas europaea 19718. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 74: 2447-2453 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Freitag, T. E., Chang, L., Clegg, C. D., Prosser, J. I. (2005). Influence of Inorganic Nitrogen Management Regime on the Diversity of Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria in Agricultural Grassland Soils. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 8323-8334 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Hoefel, D., Monis, P. T., Grooby, W. L., Andrews, S., Saint, C. P. (2005). Culture-Independent Techniques for Rapid Detection of Bacteria Associated with Loss of Chloramine Residual in a Drinking Water System. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 6479-6488 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Collins, G., O'Connor, L., Mahony, T., Gieseke, A., de Beer, D., O'Flaherty, V. (2005). Distribution, Localization, and Phylogeny of Abundant Populations of Crenarchaeota in Anaerobic Granular Sludge. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 71: 7523-7527 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Lam, P., Cowen, J. P. (2004). Processing Deep-Sea Particle-Rich Water Samples for Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization: Consideration of Storage Effects, Preservation, and Sonication. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 70: 25-33 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Cebron, A., Berthe, T., Garnier, J. (2003). Nitrification and Nitrifying Bacteria in the Lower Seine River and Estuary (France). Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 7091-7100 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Egli, K., Langer, C., Siegrist, H.-R., Zehnder, A. J. B., Wagner, M., van der Meer, J. R. (2003). Community Analysis of Ammonia and Nitrite Oxidizers during Start-Up of Nitritation Reactors. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 3213-3222 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Thimm, T., Tebbe, C. C. (2003). Protocol for Rapid Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization of Bacteria in Cryosections of Microarthropods. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 2875-2878 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Ihssen, J., Horn, M. A., Matthies, C., Gossner, A., Schramm, A., Drake, H. L. (2003). N2O-Producing Microorganisms in the Gut of the Earthworm Aporrectodea caliginosa Are Indicative of Ingested Soil Bacteria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 69: 1655-1661 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Bollmann, A., Bar-Gilissen, M.-J., Laanbroek, H. J. (2002). Growth at Low Ammonium Concentrations and Starvation Response as Potential Factors Involved in Niche Differentiation among Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 4751-4757 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Briones, A. M., Okabe, S., Umemiya, Y., Ramsing, N.-B., Reichardt, W., Okuyama, H. (2002). Influence of Different Cultivars on Populations of Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria in the Root Environment of Rice. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 3067-3075 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Regan, J. M., Harrington, G. W., Noguera, D. R. (2002). Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 73-81 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Dionisi, H. M., Layton, A. C., Harms, G., Gregory, I. R., Robinson, K. G., Sayler, G. S. (2002). Quantification of Nitrosomonas oligotropha-Like Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria and Nitrospira spp. from Full-Scale Wastewater Treatment Plants by Competitive PCR. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 68: 245-253 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Burrell, P. C., Phalen, C. M., Hovanec, T. A. (2001). Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 5791-5800 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Daims, H., Nielsen, J. L., Nielsen, P. H., Schleifer, K.-H., Wagner, M. (2001). In Situ Characterization of Nitrospira-Like Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria Active in Wastewater Treatment Plants. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 5273-5284 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Oved, T., Shaviv, A., Goldrath, T., Mandelbaum, R. T., Minz, D. (2001). Influence of Effluent Irrigation on Community Composition and Function of Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria in Soil. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 3426-3433 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Gieseke, A., Purkhold, U., Wagner, M., Amann, R., Schramm, A. (2001). Community Structure and Activity Dynamics of Nitrifying Bacteria in a Phosphate-Removing Biofilm. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 1351-1362 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Davey, M. E., O'toole, G. A. (2000). Microbial Biofilms: from Ecology to Molecular Genetics. Microbiol. Mol. Biol. Rev. 64: 847-867 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Cottrell, M. T., Kirchman, D. L. (2000). Community Composition of Marine Bacterioplankton Determined by 16S rRNA Gene Clone Libraries and Fluorescence In Situ Hybridization. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 66: 5116-5122 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Purkhold, U., Pommerening-Roser, A., Juretschko, S., Schmid, M. C., Koops, H.-P., Wagner, M. (2000). Phylogeny of All Recognized Species of Ammonia Oxidizers Based on Comparative 16S rRNA and amoA Sequence Analysis: Implications for Molecular Diversity Surveys. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 66: 5368-5382 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Bartosch, S., Wolgast, I., Spieck, E., Bock, E. (1999). Identification of Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria with Monoclonal Antibodies Recognizing the Nitrite Oxidoreductase. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 4126-4133 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Schramm, A., de Beer, D., van den Heuvel, J. C., Ottengraf, S., Amann, R. (1999). Microscale Distribution of Populations and Activities of Nitrosospira and Nitrospira spp. along a Macroscale Gradient in a Nitrifying Bioreactor: Quantification by In Situ Hybridization and the Use of Microsensors. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 3690-3696 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Okabe, S., Satoh, H., Watanabe, Y. (1999). In Situ Analysis of Nitrifying Biofilms as Determined by In Situ Hybridization and the Use of Microelectrodes. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 3182-3191 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Lee, N., Nielsen, P. H., Andreasen, K. H., Juretschko, S., Nielsen, J. L., Schleifer, K.-H., Wagner, M. (1999). Combination of Fluorescent In Situ Hybridization and Microautoradiography---a New Tool for Structure-Function Analyses in Microbial Ecology. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 65: 1289-1297 [Abstract] [Full Text]
• Santegoeds, C. M., Ferdelman, T. G., Muyzer, G., de Beer, D. (1998). Structural and Functional Dynamics of Sulfate-Reducing Populations in Bacterial Biofilms. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 64: 3731-3739 [Abstract] [Full Text]

from http/aem.asm.org/c.../full/64/9/3480

I could go on providing all sorts of answers which apparently you were too lazy to look for yourself. But I think it would be boring to cite 100s more reasons why almost anything you have said in this thread is totally devoid of truth or factual basis.

"people have had great success with DR Tims products." yet it is discontinued??
as one of fishkeepings HOLY GRAILS", why would a 'successful' product, FAIL?
Err, because it wasn't!

The product did not fail and is not discontinued- so here again you have not got a clue. Moreover there are a number of public aquariums who have used his product and endorsed it. Now what would they know having to cycle tanks holding tens of thousands of gallons. They are listed on Dr. Hovanec's site.

I think you would be best served by not posting on topics which you clearly know nothing about, which you have never researched in a lab yourself and for which you have no credentials to comment on. Moreover, it is patently obvious that you never even bothered to do any investigation of any kind before you posted the things you did.

I am sorry if I seem harsh in this but I hate it when people, who really are totally unqualified, make statements of fact which are 100% wrong.

I am still waiting for you to post links to your peer reviewed articles on microbiology or to state where you earned your graduate degrees in Microbiology if you would like me to retract all I have said. Heck, post even one link to any peer reviewed research which in any way refutes the conclusions of the three articles above by Dr. Hovanec et. al. and I will issue an effusive apology.

indeed i do understand.


yet i find the work done by TA Hovanec and EF DeLong, of the University of California.states that Nitrosomonas are not the bacteria that populate our tanks filters.
My link

which is interesting, dont you think?
and do try and grow up, with your posts to someone who disagrees with you. its childish. though revealing.

@:standy. you make my point. there are many variations (mutations) of bacteria that can, and do, populate our filters. just which one, and where, is the reason products like this fail.

as i said, we know the family (well one of them) but are no closer to knowing which one any giiven keeper wil have, or their water will support.
the mere fact there are so many. indicates there is a lot more going on. we need to find out why.

are we really saying that a WORKING Cycle in a Bottle, failed because of lack of demand? c'mon really?

I apologise for the delay in my reply. I have duties and responsibility's most here have never (hopefully will never) experience.

 

[ZoddyZod]

are we really saying that a WORKING Cycle in a Bottle, failed because of lack of demand? c'mon really?

I wont comment on the discussions about the possibility of 'working' products of this type as it's far outside my understanding. What I would like to add is that just because a product works - it doesn't guarentee that it will be a commercial success. Let me take a guess at possible reasons for it's failure

Developers had poor marketing strategy
Developers had poor access to the retail market
Profit margins on the product weren't sustainable

all guesses and many more possibilities could be applicable, we simply don't know the real cause for the products withdrawl.

Not making an argumentative stance, but just think this rationale should not be used as evidence to support that the product didn't work.


Very interesting thread and discussion.

 

[willowstwin]

verrrrrry interesting *goes and takes the icky looking bag of tank water and filter medium out of my freezer* One of the teachers here was a head microbiologist before she took the route of teaching towards retirement. She said she thought freezing would kill it.

I found some of the articles extremely interesting.

However, although saying that the same genus of bacteria have very similar conditions so therefore enabling us to assume what work for 1 will work for all is, in my opinion, not correct. For example, (and bear in mind I'm at work musing over this, I don't have time at this moment to go looking for evidence to support this, so this is just my opinion on what I think happens...) If the bacteria in my tank are N.x and bacteria in, say, Standby's tank are N.z (using x and z to denote imaginary species not referring to actual species), then maybe this is down to water parameters. My water may contain something which Standby's doesn't and vice versa (something which dechlorinating products may not remove), which may prove disagreeable to N.z. So if I found that bottling N.x and selling in my area proved successful in cycling tanks using the same water, if I then sold the product to Standby for cycling his tank, the lacking additive/compound/mineral/whatever in Standby's water may kill (inhibit respiration e.g) N.x. Maybe this is what is happening?

Maybe (as stated earlier that they survive best in stasis at certain temperatures) the storage temperature are terrible? Chilled vans, air conditioned storage areas with the "filter start" being kept too close to the air con? all sorts of variables could be responsible.

Also, don't forget (as harsh as it sounds), some of these companies are out simply to make money. If they can sell bottles and bottles of this stuff to uneducated people - mothers pandering to their children screaming "I WANT A GOLDFISH!", or to people who can't be bothered to look into exactly what is required in order to set up and keep an aquarium, then who's to say it isn't just mineral water in (some companys) bottles? Could be the case, how will we know?

It's a very interesting topic. Please keep posting articles

 

[raptorrex]

are we really saying that a WORKING Cycle in a Bottle, failed because of lack of demand? c'mon really?

I wont comment on the discussions about the possibility of 'working' products of this type as it's far outside my understanding. What I would like to add is that just because a product works - it doesn't guarentee that it will be a commercial success. Let me take a guess at possible reasons for it's failure

Developers had poor marketing strategy
Developers had poor access to the retail market
Profit margins on the product weren't sustainable

all guesses and many more possibilities could be applicable, we simply don't know the real cause for the products withdrawl.

Not making an argumentative stance, but just think this rationale should not be used as evidence to support that the product didn't work.


Very interesting thread and discussion.

as a rule, i would agree. but as there is nothing stopping anyone else selling the same bacteria (considering the clamour for just such a product) yet none have. indicates more than just a marketing problem. which, for me, make it a valid point.

another point for twotank.. reviews of a paper, done by someone already connected to the research, is not independent peer review. still waiting for that.

 

[ZoddyZod]

as a rule, i would agree. but as there is nothing stopping anyone else selling the same bacteria (considering the clamour for just such a product) yet none have. indicates more than just a marketing problem. which, for me, make it a valid point.

....unless there is some form of patent protection on the storage conditions and use of this bacteria in an aquarium setting. The would not be able to patent the bacteria themselves, but the way it is stored and transported and possibly the application as a 'filter starter' could have been.

I'm playing devils advocate, obviously.

 

[raptorrex]

....unless there is some form of patent protection on the storage conditions and use of this bacteria in an aquarium setting. The would not be able to patent the bacteria themselves, but the way it is stored and transported and possibly the application as a 'filter starter' could have been.

I'm playing devils advocate, obviously.

as, to an extent, am I.

I fail to see how there is any problem, either keeping or transporting the product. if Twotanks comments about our bacteria not dying, but going dormant if they have no food. if the are dormant, within reason, the environment would be irrelevant. and if they need proprietary product or techniques to produce the bacteria. they are not the bacteria we use.

if you take a wider look at research on nitrification bacteria.(not specifically aquarium based) the suggestion that there is one bacteria for any job, just does not hold water. most suggest there are several, sometimes many, active distinct bacteria at work.

the only suggestion that Dr Tim is the world foremost authority on Aquarium bacteria is only made on his own sales site. as yet, i have not found this accolade ascribed to him, anywhere else. this has to raise questions. though i agree provides few answers.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am sorry raptorex but your understanding of the term "peer reviewed" still seems to fall short. Google the term perhaps?

Peer-reviewed means that before the paper was published in a scientific journal it was first anonymously reviewed by other researchers not connected with the research. These reviewers judged the paper for content and scientific worthiness. Only papers determined to meet sufficient scientific criteria are accepted for publication. This is part of the self-policing of scientists.

Please note the word anonymously in the definition of peer reviewed. In case you do not know what this term means, this might help
http/www.merriam-w...onary/anonymous

You cite as your evidence Dr Hovanec's 1st paper from 1996 in which they show that the bacteria which had been thought to be responsible for keeping tanks cycled are, in fact, not the ones that do so. That paper is dated 1996. In his 1998 paper he begins to identify those bacteria that are actually responsible. He and his co-researchers continued refining this information in papers published in 2001 and 2004.

Also, you have also apparently failed to research the history of Dr, Hovanec, Bio-Spira, Marineland, Tetra etc. If you had you would have discovered that Dr. Hovanec

for 17 years, was the Chief Science Officer of Aquaria Inc., the parent company of Marineland Aquarium Products, Aquarium Systems (Instant Ocean) and Perfecto Manufacturing.

at Marineland, Dr. Hovanec was in charge of the biology, chemistry and microbial ecology laboratories that comprise Marineland Labs. He was also responsible for overseeing the quality control of such products as Instant Ocean® sea salt and BioSpira® nitrifying bacteria.

Marineland was subsequently acquired by United Pet Group Company, a division of Spectrum Brands Inc. UPG also owns Tetra, Aquarium Systems, Jungle and Perfecto Mfg. as well as several other non-aquarium related pet companies.

At the time Marineland was acquired they closed their Moor Park research facility in California and it was moved to Blacksburg, Virginia and another facility in Germany. Dr. Hovanec left Marineland at that time and started his own company in California. Tetra took over the manufacturing of Bio-Spira which was renamed Safe Start. So the product never stopped being made and sold, it was merely rebranded as part of the acquisition of the several companies involved.

Tetra Werke is located in Melle, Germany, and is the research and manufacturing center for the Tetra fish foods, nutrition products and water conditioners that supply a worldwide market. Tetra in Blacksburg, VA, is the center for warehousing and distribution, as well as for equipment research and development. Electrical products for aquariums, ponds and reptile keeping are engineered in Blacksburg for all global affiliates.

From http/www.tetra-fish.com/sites/TetraFish/GeneralContent.aspx?id=152

You asked about Dr. Hovanec's patents?

Patents:

U.S. Patent No. 6,207,440. Issued March 21, 2001. Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.

U.S. Patent No. 6,265,206. Issued July 24, 2001. Method of Using Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.

U.S. Patent No. 6,268,154. Issued July 31, 2001. Method for Detecting Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.
Commonwealth of Australia Patent No. 750945. Issued 21 November 2002. Bacterial nitrite oxidizer and method of use thereof.

The above (and much more info not quoted) was taken from http/web.archive.org/web/20050307102048/www.marineland.com/drtims_Currvitae.asp

if Twotanks comments about our bacteria not dying, but going dormant if they have no food.

The comments are not mine, they were quotes from Dr. Hovanec about the bacteria in his One and Only Nitrifying bacteria and would also apply to Safe Start nee Bio-Spira.

Nitrifying bacteria can live in a bottle: for awhile – many think that nitrifying bacteria cannot live in a bottle and will say the reason is because nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores like other bacteria. This is a half-truth. Nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores but that doesn’t mean they can’t last in a bottle (thing about it – if nitrifying bacteria could not survive poor conditions how would they have survived for millions of years?) They can live in a bottle but under optimal conditions the time period is about one year. The nitrifying bacteria don’t die in the bottle, their activity level drops and eventually it becomes so low that there is little measurable positive effect when they are poured into the aquarium water. Provided the nitrifying bacteria in the bottle were not subject to bad environmental conditions (see the next paragraph) they can last about 1 year in a bottle.

No special preservation chemical or substance has been demonstrated to extend this time period. Refrigerating the bacteria is the only thing that has been shown to measurably extend their shelf life.

Nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to environment conditions – even when the bacteria in the bottle are the correct species there are certain environment conditions that harm and even kill the bacteria while they are in the bottle leading to their inability to accelerate the establishment of nitrification. The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It don’t matter the brand – freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.

Both quote are from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/Blog_twitter.html

And while you are correct that there are several types of nitrifying bacteria, most are found/used in waste treatment which involves very high levels of ammonia and nitrite which will kill the nitrifyers that are found in aquariums. In fact, Dr. Hovanec clearly states that high ammonia levels will first start to inhibit and then to kill tank nitrifyers.

The problem is that the correct species of nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to high levels of ammonia or nitrite. I will address this in more detail in another article but published results show that a major difference between the traditional nitrifying bacteria and the correct one for the aquarium are that the traditional nitrifying bacteria are for sewage treatment situations which have much much high concentrations of ammonia and nitrite. The aquarium species of nitrifying bacteria do not tolerate these high levels of ammonia or nitrite.

So if you’re experiencing ammonia or nitrite levels of 5 ppm or higher you need to do a water change before adding the nitrifying bacteria. Adding the nitrifying bacteria at the beginning gives them the best chance for success because they are not inhibited by high concentrations of ammonia or nitrite.

From the same link as above.

And I don't care if you like or dislike my posting style. But your comments about my style are sure a good way to deflect attention from the fact that much of what you post is not backed by verifiable information and research.

As long as you continue to make factual mistatements, I plan to continue to correct them with evidence not personal opinion. Sooner or later most of the members here will begin to see the light I hope.