🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟

Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁

Bedside Manner

afremont

Fish Crazy
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
301
Reaction score
1
It's no secret that everyone here loves fish. That includes both, helpers and helpees. It's practically a given that all newbies start off wrong because they don't know any better. They rush out and get a tank, stick some pretty fish in it and then are traumatized by watching them drop like flies while the nitrogen cycle of death runs its course. This results in many a lost hobbyist not only because they were uninformed, but also because they came to a public forum to literally beg for help the way a parent does when their child is critically ill. This brings me to the point of this post.

Some people here are parents and the rest are not. For those that are not, pretend I am talking about your pets. As a parent myself, I do the best that I can for my child. Above all, I love my child and want what is best for her. Does this mean that because I can't provide ideal conditions for her that I should look to rehome her? I mean it's very easy to look at someone else and be critical of how they raise their children, but that doesn't mean they should be rehomed.

I just want folks to take a minute and think about how they'd feel if they took their child to a specialist and the doctor went on and on about how they don't have a big enough house, the yard was too small, didn't have clean enough air, good enough food, clothing, etc. etc. etc rather than try to help the child. This is basically what takes place in the public forums.

There are a good many fishkeepers out there that are quick to criticize others on how they keep fish, yet those same people pride themselves in lasering 4 or 5 watts per gallon into their tank creating literal blinding conditions for the fish. There are also plenty of us that prefer to have a "favorite" fish that we can't keep in what are considered proper conditions or numbers. I think we should all just face the simple fact that keeping virtually any tropical fish in any tank that fits in your home is unnatural and unhealthy for the fish when compared to how nature does it. Therefore, we are all guilty of keeping fish in inadequate conditions even though a peer group redefined what was suitable for a fish so that we can all feel good about keeping them wedged into a glass box. For example six is an appropriate number for a schoaling fish normally congregates by the hundreds or thousands. Or that a betta that lives in a shallow rice patty with a large amount of surface to himself will be fine in a bowl full of ammonia.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if one can't offer anything helpful in terms of treating a fish, then why make a post that serves only to make the poster further regret ever trying to raise fish. The more people that have success and continue in the hobby, the more we will all benefit from better equipment, lower prices, more studies and better meds for fish etc. By the time most people find these forums they already know how badly they "messed up", there is usually no need to point it out. There is certainly no need to gang-slap a poster with a barrage of posts doing so.

Does anyone actually know of any LFS that would spend $10 for meds on one treatment regime for a fish that would only sell for $5 in perfect health?
 
Although I understand the purpose of your topic, I'm not sure I completely agree. The child analogy is not one that works for me. Let's take keeping a common plec in a 10g tank and use your analogy to create a situation where I kept a child in the cupboard under the stairs - a fair comparison in terms of size of fish/child and their surroundings. Should social services take my child away? Yes. Should other fish keepers comment that the 10g is no place for a 2 foot fish? Yes. I dont think any half-knowledgeable fish keeper is going to try and find ways of helping to keep a fish completely unsuited for a certain size tank in those conditions, hence why the cry of 'take it back!' is often voiced. I do however agree that some can voice this advice in a less that subtle or polite way that can sometimes be the verging on hysteria. That is not needed, especially when advising a person new to the hobby who would simply not have known better or has been given some poor advice.

Of course we as fish keepers can never recreate the natural conditions the fish would find in the wild in terms of space. But the minimum we should do is ensure they are comfortable in captivity. Having a good sized tank for the fish you decide to keep should be one of the bare minimum requirements you should adhere to, rather than looking for ways around it.
 
Although I understand the purpose of your topic, I'm not sure I completely agree. The child analogy is not one that works for me. Let's take keeping a common plec in a 10g tank and use your analogy to create a situation where I kept a child in the cupboard under the stairs - a fair comparison in terms of size of fish/child and their surroundings. Should social services take my child away? Yes. Should other fish keepers comment that the 10g is no place for a 2 foot fish? Yes. I dont think any half-knowledgeable fish keeper is going to try and find ways of helping to keep a fish completely unsuited for a certain size tank in those conditions, hence why the cry of 'take it back!' is often voiced. I do however agree that some can voice this advice in a less that subtle or polite way that can sometimes be the verging on hysteria. That is not needed, especially when advising a person new to the hobby who would simply not have known better or has been given some poor advice.

Of course we as fish keepers can never recreate the natural conditions the fish would find in the wild in terms of space. But the minimum we should do is ensure they are comfortable in captivity. Having a good sized tank for the fish you decide to keep should be one of the bare minimum requirements you should adhere to, rather than looking for ways around it.

I see your point and I anticipated it. In your example, sure the child should be rehomed as it is being seriously abused. Of course I would say the same thing about a child that couldn't leave a 3000 square foot home and expand its environment by going outside. You might be able to supply all of its needs, but it will not really thrive. What about keeping 12 people in a one bedroom apartment? CPS, doesn't seem to find that all that bad, at least around here. In the case of a plec, I agree they shouldn't be sold without the purchaser understanding just how big this fish is going to be. On the other hand we aren't talking about a 2' fish, we are talking about one that achieves 5" or so. Under the best of conditions, captive fish thrive in the same manner that astronauts thrive in the space station.

I agree with your second paragraph, but shouldn't we always keep in mind that these so-called comfortable conditions were determined by people with a vested interest in keeping fish in captivity, not by scientists doing years of research. A bit like putting people in a nursing home isn't it? ;)

I look at it like this; if people truly want to keep fish they will soon discover their mistakes by study and will correct their problems in time without being shamed into it. If they don't want to learn, then no amount of prodding will change them. When I took up fishkeeping again after a very long hiatus, I started spending as much time as possible learning about fish disease and treatment since it was the one thing I remember that made the hobby so frustrating. There is so much more information available now that ignorance is chosen rather than the default condition.

Another point, the nitrogen cycle. Yes, it's everyone's first bit of enlightenment and knowing water conditions is important to diagnosing and treating sick fish. On the other hand, when someone comes in asking about a fish missing a tail and an eye two days after they put in their new firemouth, do we really need to make the assumption that they haven't "properly cycled their tank", whatever "properly" means. I take it to mean that one has sufficient bacteria present to quickly turn ammonia into nitrates without spikes in ammonia or nitrItes. I get the idea that too many folks think it means that you have to have spent some amount of time, usually weeks waiting it out. There are jump-start methods that do work.
 
Okay I kind of agree with what your saying and I understand it but you can't compare a child to a fish, completely different requirements obviously.Also yes keeping fish in tanks can be classed as some form of cruelty but these fish have never stepped foot in the wild, if we were to put these said home bred fish in the wild, I doubt they would last a second.

People can jump the gun on here but there is really no point in beating around the bush. People will tell you as it is, as that may not be the best way to go about things, its the fish they have in mind.

People can use their own judgement, keeping an convict cichlid in a 10 gallon with tank mates would be classed as wrong, these fish take a while to get to adult size and most max out at around 5 inches.As this may be, they are very territorial and aggressive fish, there are many factors you have to keep in mind.Overall I get what your saying and I agree with the fact that some people can go OTT but fact is, its a public forum and people are in their rights to state their opinion.
 
Everyone here has some very valid points. And when reading similar topics about people having issues I can see it in their posts how frustrated and defensive they get because people get all critical and miss the big picture, help the fish. I remember seeing one topic on here where somebody was in desperate need of help and people went on to make 10-15 posts all criticizing this person and the living conditions before that person finally said "is anyone gonna help my fish" or something to that effect. We all get to caught up in the blame game and it forces a lot of new hobbyists out before they even really got started and it's a shame. That is why I always recommend to anyone before getting into the hobby to pick up this book it's what I did before I even bought a tank or anything. Then I had a good understanding of the hobby and what I was getting into, all the basics covered. The book is The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums, by David E. Boruchowitz very helpful and I suggest everyone do the same or a similar book. Once getting into saltwater tanks I did the something with a saltwater book. It really let's people know what's involved in fish keeping all the work that goes into it and then they can decide if it's for them or not.
 
I understand what you are saying as well, but...a few points as to why people do things on here the way they do.

A lot of times when people ask a question about diseases or what not, particular ones like ick that are stress induced, they are talking about an ick infestation in a 10g tank with totally unsuitable stocking. Generally, a fish is not going to get ick without a stressor. So lets say that I have an ick infection in my 10g that has a jewel cichlid, some tiger barbs and a discus. Why do my fish have ick? Well lets see.

*The stock list is horrendous. The fish are stress as they all require different parameters and they are crammed in a tiny tank.
*The discus is not compatible with anything in the tank and the tank is too small, which is why the discus is stressed. Rehome it.
*The jewel gets to be about 5 inches, and wants to eat everything in the tank. Not to mention its probably stressed because all the other fish are in its territory. No wonder it has ick. Rehome it.
*The tiger barbs may be okay in a 10g for a little while, but they will eventually require larger numbers to prevent stress.

A lot of times with some of the diseases, they only get them because they are weakened from stress. A lot of times, stress is cause by bad water, to small of a tank, or incompatible tankmates, and the best course of treatment is rehoming them.
 
Interesting thread. I'm also in a pretty sticky situation right now. I hope things will get better soon, as I want to upgrade my aquarium as soon as possible (during this month and preferably this week).

I'm torn between getting a new tank or if that cannot be done in a set amount of time, I'll have to find them a better home which is what hurts, as one of those 3 fish I have is my childhood pet. Had him since 2003, even though I had a tank that was maybe 40L or so before I had to keep him in the current tank (for a few months now) which is a bit more than half the size of the old one as my mom not only feared that the old tank had a patched crack on the bottom, but she said that a 23L is enough for one fish (stupid assumption, now that I've learned about it and told her too). :(

I also made another major screw up and bought 3 swordtails a month ago, few days before I joined this forum.

1 of them was very aggressive and somehow ended up fighting with the other 2 (she was a black swordtail female) and one day she started to get picked on by the other two as if they were paying her back. I separated her since she was too stressed by her "room mates", but she got sick and didn't make it, she lasted only 1 week since I got her.
Now I have the pair of swordtails which seem to get along, as they stay together, though the male sometimes gets on the female's nerve and she makes a turn at him, he quickly hides behind the filter if she turns around.
The catfish doesn't bother them and the female and my catfish are kind of like buddies for a few weeks now.
 
Everyone here has some very valid points. And when reading similar topics about people having issues I can see it in their posts how frustrated and defensive they get because people get all critical and miss the big picture, help the fish. I remember seeing one topic on here where somebody was in desperate need of help and people went on to make 10-15 posts all criticizing this person and the living conditions before that person finally said "is anyone gonna help my fish" or something to that effect. We all get to caught up in the blame game and it forces a lot of new hobbyists out before they even really got started and it's a shame. That is why I always recommend to anyone before getting into the hobby to pick up this book it's what I did before I even bought a tank or anything. Then I had a good understanding of the hobby and what I was getting into, all the basics covered. The book is The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums, by David E. Boruchowitz very helpful and I suggest everyone do the same or a similar book. Once getting into saltwater tanks I did the something with a saltwater book. It really let's people know what's involved in fish keeping all the work that goes into it and then they can decide if it's for them or not.

Here here! That's what I'm trying to say. Maybe I get a little emotional about it, but hey I care about fish AND people. I read that book, it's pretty good, but a little short sighted on tank stocking schemes. He really should have allowed for a 20 gallon tank since there are so many out there. Still it's a really good book that beginners should read thru BEFORE jumping in with both feet.

Given the amount of physical work in maintaining a tank, a little pre-reading by beginners could, and likely would, result in allot less frustration for everyone. Unfortunately the chain stores don't (or aren't allowed to) warn and educate customers about the non plug-n-play status of aquariums. And even good LFS stores have to balance the expense of spending the time it takes to educate someone with the cost of replacing a few "hardy cycle fish" and waiting to see if the customer is really willing to stick with it in the long run. Of course why should they lose a three or four hundred dollar package tank sale by scaring the customer off. Fortunately there are bacteria in a bottle products that do actually work and can basically instant cycle a tank. Once enough people that are "in the know" accept them, we can hopefully put this stuff behind us since dumping in a bottle can fix a tank cycle issue when done correctly.
 
I understand what you are saying as well, but...a few points as to why people do things on here the way they do.

A lot of times when people ask a question about diseases or what not, particular ones like ick that are stress induced, they are talking about an ick infestation in a 10g tank with totally unsuitable stocking. Generally, a fish is not going to get ick without a stressor. So lets say that I have an ick infection in my 10g that has a jewel cichlid, some tiger barbs and a discus. Why do my fish have ick? Well lets see.

*The stock list is horrendous. The fish are stress as they all require different parameters and they are crammed in a tiny tank.
*The discus is not compatible with anything in the tank and the tank is too small, which is why the discus is stressed. Rehome it.
*The jewel gets to be about 5 inches, and wants to eat everything in the tank. Not to mention its probably stressed because all the other fish are in its territory. No wonder it has ick. Rehome it.
*The tiger barbs may be okay in a 10g for a little while, but they will eventually require larger numbers to prevent stress.

A lot of times with some of the diseases, they only get them because they are weakened from stress. A lot of times, stress is cause by bad water, to small of a tank, or incompatible tankmates, and the best course of treatment is rehoming them.

That's a valid point. Stress is the leading cause of illness with a fish and over/incorrectly stocked tanks make it near impossible to keep the fish healthy. I'm not sure whose stocking list you are talking about, it doesn't sound like the tank that made me start this thread. Looking at your stocking, I see that you prefer to keep your betta fish under constant stress by keeping them where they can see each other. I can also see you are a little short on some species that like more friends.

Personally, I don't like how you keep your betta fish, I think you should move or rehome them rather than constantly stressing them like you are. Four male bettas wedged into a 10g tank is horrendous. Now that wasn't very nice of me, was it?

EDIT: I see that you were being hypothetical about the example tank stock. Sorry if I sounded mean about your bettas, but really they can't be that happy seeing each other all the time. Flaring is a defensive reaction to stress. I hope that you haven't followed other "accepted" betta practice by not having a heater or filter in the tank. Betta fish are not sub-tropical fish and really should be kept at tropical temperatures.

Actually, they are your fish and you can keep them however you like. You didn't ask and I shouldn't have said anything. Just driving my point home about bedside manner by not using any.
 
That's a valid point. Stress is the leading cause of illness with a fish and over/incorrectly stocked tanks make it near impossible to keep the fish healthy. I'm not sure whose stocking list you are talking about, it doesn't sound like the tank that made me start this thread. Looking at your stocking, I see that you prefer to keep your betta fish under constant stress by keeping them where they can see each other. I can also see you are a little short on some species that like more friends.

Personally, I don't like how you keep your betta fish, I think you should move or rehome them rather than constantly stressing them like you are. Four male bettas wedged into a 10g tank is horrendous. Now that wasn't very nice of me, was it?
There are 2 10g tank that are divided and they cannot see each other, for one, so I am sorry you cannot read my signature. They have 5g each to themselves. They are not stressed at all, and my stocking isnt the stock in question now is it? I have never had to post in the emergency section for stress related illnesses. And regards to the stock list i posted, it was an example.
 
Personally, I don't like how you keep your betta fish, I think you should move or rehome them rather than constantly stressing them like you are. Four male bettas wedged into a 10g tank is horrendous. Now that wasn't very nice of me, was it?

This is uncalled for and is actually harming to your argument as now you sound petty and vindictive. The argument was going well with both sides bringing their points to the table with out resorting to what boils down to childish behavior on the same level as harassment


edit: in response to your edit. DM even stated in his post that the bettas cannot see each other. Again, your argument here invalidates everything else you were originally trying to get through to the forum because the pettiness stands out like flashing lights to us
 
[quote name=%26%2339%3BJenste%26%2339%3B timestamp='1329761974' post='3262117']<br />
<br /><br />Personally, I don't like how you keep your betta fish, I think you should move or rehome them rather than constantly stressing them like you are.  Four male bettas wedged into a 10g tank is horrendous.  Now that wasn't very nice of me, was it?<br /><br />
<br /><br />This is uncalled for and is actually harming to your argument as now you sound petty and vindictive.  The argument was going well with both sides bringing their points to the table with out resorting to what boils down to childish behavior on the same level as harassment<br /><br /><br />edit:   in response to your edit.  DM even stated in his post that the bettas cannot see each other.  Again, your argument here invalidates everything else you were originally trying to get through to the forum because the pettiness stands out like flashing lights to us<br />[/quote]

+1000000
 
I'd like to remind everyone to remain polite and courteous towards others, even if your point of view differs from theirs. There is room here for everyone's opinion. But we will not tollerate petty bickering, flaming or name calling. If this thread goes that way it will be closed and sanctions taken. Please keep this in mind when you post and phrase your contribution accordingly. Thanks.
 
In response to your edit, Afremont, both tanks are filtered and heater. My bettas are extremely healthy, as are all the fish in the EIGHT tanks I keep :)
 

Most reactions

Back
Top