Almost forgot - my lfs doesn't do gH or kH tests, just my luck. Still worth it buying a kit, or finding another fish shop that does do it? There is one about 15-20 minutes away from me, I've used it on the odd occasion; I can always phone them and see if they do offer those tests. The used fuel would still be cheaper than buying a kit.
Avoiding Nitrate Shock
- Thread starter Kaidonni
- Start date
Kaidonni said:
We previously saw your tap water GH (around 9 dGH) so there is no use in buying a test unless you were to go down the road of adjusting the GH, and nothing in this thread suggests this is needed.
On the earlier question of Matrix and Purigen, I've never used either so will leave that for those who have to comment.
Byron.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
In order to have biological denitrification, one need anaerobic zones within the media (or substrate). There are types of aerobic bacteria, called facultative, which normally use free oxygen. But when there is none, they can switch to using nitrate They basically get the O out of the NO3 and that leaves nitrogen gas which is harmless and goes back into the air. To get this process to happen in a filter requires properly designed media. What happens is as the water passes through the media, the aerobic bacteria use up all the free oxygen. But they are then producing nitrate. The facultative aerobes, living deeper in the media, having no oxygen available, switch to using the nitrate. And then you have denitrification.
This same process typically occurs in the substrate of planted tanks with roots. In addition, plants themselves use nitrate as a nutrient. This is why high tech planted tanks often require the addition of nitrate because what the tank produces is not sufficient for the plant needs.
Encouraging natural biological denitrification in most filters requries specially designed media. In nature, the denitrifying process occurs because there is huge natural media volume. This is what is behind the great effectiveness of the Hamburg Matten filter which uses a huge amount of media. Here is an example I posted on another thread:
Now, as to the SeaChem Matrix and similar products. The theory is that it is constructed to have the proper porosity to encourage denitrification deeper within the media. This is not as effective as huger media volumes, but it should be more effective at encouraging denitrification than most media with its bigger pore sizes and fewer of them such as typical sponges or noodles. The key is getting the water to flow through media with much more bio-film inside to set up denitrification. Note, not all the water passes though the media where there are proper conditions for denitrifying. That means one is not removing all the oxygen from the water. But we also have the surface agitation in a tank to replace that oxygen as fast as it may be used. Incidentally, biological filtration works best at slower flow rates than most filters have. It is better to use other equipment to create circulation. That slower flow helps with all the biological filtration processes. Faster flow rates mean less comprehensive filtration which we can easily overcome with our regular water changes, media rinsing, floss replacement and substrate vacuuming.
SeaChem is not the only company to make media specifically designed to host denitrification in filters. Sera would be another with their Siporax. These products can be added to almost any filter to encourage denitrification. However, in larger scale application I believe there are more cost effective methods. The average filters we use on many tanks are usually too small to allow for sufficient media to do all the work that is potentially possible when using a greater volume of media. Even using those products there may not be sufficient media to host all of the potential bacteria required for optimal filtration. But, if one can lowerenough of one's nitrate this way, that may be enough to solve many problems.
As for Purigen, it does similar (but not identical) things as carbon, but it is rechargeable. It is also more expensive. It is quite good at removing organics. It was suggested I use it in my altum angel tank as it is felt that these fish communicate chemically/homonally at times and that the Purigen would reduce the potential build up of these things in a tank. I have never used it because my altum tank is tea stained water and both carbon and Purigen would remove the staining.
One last comment here. All of the above involves biological/natural means for achieving our goals for keeping our tanks clean, safe and healthy for our fish and critters. There is also an assortment of chemical means that are supposed to do a lot of the same things. However, it is almost always preferable to do things the way nature "designed' them than to seek shortcuts using chemicals. Most of these come with either side effects or they create of something else that maysimply be not as bad as what it "solved." Examples would be having nitrifying bacteria to handle ammonia instead of constantly using an ammonia detoxifying product, or using ro water to soften water and/or tp lower pH instead of buffers or ion exchange softeners which add sodium to the water etc.
This same process typically occurs in the substrate of planted tanks with roots. In addition, plants themselves use nitrate as a nutrient. This is why high tech planted tanks often require the addition of nitrate because what the tank produces is not sufficient for the plant needs.
Encouraging natural biological denitrification in most filters requries specially designed media. In nature, the denitrifying process occurs because there is huge natural media volume. This is what is behind the great effectiveness of the Hamburg Matten filter which uses a huge amount of media. Here is an example I posted on another thread:
Now, as to the SeaChem Matrix and similar products. The theory is that it is constructed to have the proper porosity to encourage denitrification deeper within the media. This is not as effective as huger media volumes, but it should be more effective at encouraging denitrification than most media with its bigger pore sizes and fewer of them such as typical sponges or noodles. The key is getting the water to flow through media with much more bio-film inside to set up denitrification. Note, not all the water passes though the media where there are proper conditions for denitrifying. That means one is not removing all the oxygen from the water. But we also have the surface agitation in a tank to replace that oxygen as fast as it may be used. Incidentally, biological filtration works best at slower flow rates than most filters have. It is better to use other equipment to create circulation. That slower flow helps with all the biological filtration processes. Faster flow rates mean less comprehensive filtration which we can easily overcome with our regular water changes, media rinsing, floss replacement and substrate vacuuming.
SeaChem is not the only company to make media specifically designed to host denitrification in filters. Sera would be another with their Siporax. These products can be added to almost any filter to encourage denitrification. However, in larger scale application I believe there are more cost effective methods. The average filters we use on many tanks are usually too small to allow for sufficient media to do all the work that is potentially possible when using a greater volume of media. Even using those products there may not be sufficient media to host all of the potential bacteria required for optimal filtration. But, if one can lowerenough of one's nitrate this way, that may be enough to solve many problems.
As for Purigen, it does similar (but not identical) things as carbon, but it is rechargeable. It is also more expensive. It is quite good at removing organics. It was suggested I use it in my altum angel tank as it is felt that these fish communicate chemically/homonally at times and that the Purigen would reduce the potential build up of these things in a tank. I have never used it because my altum tank is tea stained water and both carbon and Purigen would remove the staining.
One last comment here. All of the above involves biological/natural means for achieving our goals for keeping our tanks clean, safe and healthy for our fish and critters. There is also an assortment of chemical means that are supposed to do a lot of the same things. However, it is almost always preferable to do things the way nature "designed' them than to seek shortcuts using chemicals. Most of these come with either side effects or they create of something else that maysimply be not as bad as what it "solved." Examples would be having nitrifying bacteria to handle ammonia instead of constantly using an ammonia detoxifying product, or using ro water to soften water and/or tp lower pH instead of buffers or ion exchange softeners which add sodium to the water etc.
Little confused now - would it be pointless using either Matrix or Purigen (likely to be Matrix due to it's larger size and not requiring a mesh bag) in my filter? I wouldn't be able to use overly much, they recommend 500ml for 200 litres (so ~125ml for 45 litres). It'd go towards the top of the insert where the foam and polyester pads fit as the upper half of the pads seems to be where most muck gets captured, so probably where the flow is greatest.
ShinySideUp
Fish Herder
There is a lot of science here and some non-science [sic]. The fact is is that you have a Clown Loach that you feel is not for you and you have found a new home for it. Now I don't know the background of your loach but I will assume it's something to do with tank size or some such and that the prospective owner has the environment to give the Clown a life more appropriate to the species than you were able to provide and I congratulate you for doing your best for the fish.
When I have bought Clown Loaches from my LFS I have not known their water parameters but have known that my own parameters include water that is always in the region of 40ppm despite 50% water changes every week, so the loaches have had to take their chances and I am pleased to say that I have never experienced any problems.
Do your normal water changes, assure yourself that the new owner also does his/hers and go for it; there is nothing much more you can do to make the transition any easier.
When I have bought Clown Loaches from my LFS I have not known their water parameters but have known that my own parameters include water that is always in the region of 40ppm despite 50% water changes every week, so the loaches have had to take their chances and I am pleased to say that I have never experienced any problems.
Do your normal water changes, assure yourself that the new owner also does his/hers and go for it; there is nothing much more you can do to make the transition any easier.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
One correction of what I wrote above. The bacteria involved in denitrification are facultative anaerobes. I mistakenly wrote aerobes. They function both with or w/o oxygen present. They convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas via anaerobic respiration. So I still get partial credit for getting the facultative part right.
I thought the issue of the fish being moved to a lower nitrate tank had long since been resolved in this thread? I posted in response to:
If you are asking if it is pointless to use Purigen to remove nitrate, the answer is still yes.
Matrix will host most of the various bacteria one needs in a filter. The only issue is to have sufficient space for it. You do not need floss pads, you do not need sponges, you simply use all Matrix. Doing this will increase the amount of denitrifying bacteria in ones filter. There is some in any biofilm which also contains the nitrifiers and other microorganisms. You could use one big chunk of Poret foam just as easily. The key is large internal surface and flow through. So if you are asking will Matrix will help lower nitrate, then the answer is yes.
If you want to understand denitrification broadly, try here Denitrification in recirculating systems: http
/scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http/www.growfishanywhere.com/media/3849/denitrification__2_.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm1o5Igiq5BZat2i8DkqUwO4LvBYig&oi=scholarr
Section 6 is where it gets into what applies here.
Here is the short simpler version:
/fishchum.okstate.edu/featured-contributions/79-freshwater-filtration-novel-insights-and-practical-considerations
And if you want to read about Matten Filters, go here http/www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/
I thought the issue of the fish being moved to a lower nitrate tank had long since been resolved in this thread? I posted in response to:
If you are asking if it is pointless to use Purigen to remove nitrate, the answer is still yes.
Matrix will host most of the various bacteria one needs in a filter. The only issue is to have sufficient space for it. You do not need floss pads, you do not need sponges, you simply use all Matrix. Doing this will increase the amount of denitrifying bacteria in ones filter. There is some in any biofilm which also contains the nitrifiers and other microorganisms. You could use one big chunk of Poret foam just as easily. The key is large internal surface and flow through. So if you are asking will Matrix will help lower nitrate, then the answer is yes.
If you want to understand denitrification broadly, try here Denitrification in recirculating systems: http
/scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http/www.growfishanywhere.com/media/3849/denitrification__2_.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm1o5Igiq5BZat2i8DkqUwO4LvBYig&oi=scholarrSection 6 is where it gets into what applies here.
Here is the short simpler version:
from http
/fishchum.okstate.edu/featured-contributions/79-freshwater-filtration-novel-insights-and-practical-considerationsAnd if you want to read about Matten Filters, go here http
/www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/The issue of nitrate shock is resolved, it's just once the Clown Loach is rehomed, what to do then about the nitrates? Would matrix be worth it at all, or relatively ineffective? Considering my tap parameters as regards nitrate, even once the bioload goes well down, I'll still have issues. From what has been said, I take it the Purigen isn't as good as the Matrix in this situation.
You might know more than you think...you popped in on my thread in the classifieds part of the forum here back in November.
I do have an offer that looks quite realistic. I don't think he has a quarantine tank of any sort, but he does have equipment for the transport of large fish (he needs 10 litres of my tank water during transport, he'd be using a polybox that fish shops use, it can be taped shut and has a bag inside). He has four Clown Loaches, his nitrates are very low (he tries to keep them close to 0ppm), his dGh is ~10, his pH is about the same as mine (lower than 7.4-7.5 is probably better in the long run as Star4 confirmed for me that 7.5 is the maximum). He does have the lights on in his tank whereas I never have the lights on in mine, but considering the size of my tank and the whole situation, that's probably wise. I've got a TDS pen now, but not sure if that will really help out in this situation (I have it anyway for general purpose - even after the Clown Loach is rehomed, it might come in handy to know the general health of my tank). Other tank mates are a pearl cichlid, silver shark, pleco and two large catfish. It could happen this Friday...so I'm rather apprehensive. My Clown Loach has experienced enough stress as it is, but then I go into worrying about what will happen during the rehoming and if he can cope with it...but if I don't go ahead, I'm just killing him slowly and will probably regret not trying if anything happens in my tank.
ShinySideUp said:
You might know more than you think...you popped in on my thread in the classifieds part of the forum here back in November.
I do have an offer that looks quite realistic. I don't think he has a quarantine tank of any sort, but he does have equipment for the transport of large fish (he needs 10 litres of my tank water during transport, he'd be using a polybox that fish shops use, it can be taped shut and has a bag inside). He has four Clown Loaches, his nitrates are very low (he tries to keep them close to 0ppm), his dGh is ~10, his pH is about the same as mine (lower than 7.4-7.5 is probably better in the long run as Star4 confirmed for me that 7.5 is the maximum). He does have the lights on in his tank whereas I never have the lights on in mine, but considering the size of my tank and the whole situation, that's probably wise. I've got a TDS pen now, but not sure if that will really help out in this situation (I have it anyway for general purpose - even after the Clown Loach is rehomed, it might come in handy to know the general health of my tank). Other tank mates are a pearl cichlid, silver shark, pleco and two large catfish. It could happen this Friday...so I'm rather apprehensive. My Clown Loach has experienced enough stress as it is, but then I go into worrying about what will happen during the rehoming and if he can cope with it...but if I don't go ahead, I'm just killing him slowly and will probably regret not trying if anything happens in my tank.
I would say that the clown loach is getting an ideal home. It is sometimes amazing to recognize how much better a fish will settle down in a new environment when there are others of the species. And before someone jumps in to say there might be an hierarchal issue, I acknowledge it; but all things considered, it is worth it, and if the new tank is properly aquascaped for this species, it should go very well.
Light is more of an issue for fish than many will accept, but the easy solution here is floating plants. It is again amazing just how much this settles most fish.
Byron.
Light is more of an issue for fish than many will accept, but the easy solution here is floating plants. It is again amazing just how much this settles most fish.
Byron.
In my experience, the more Clowns, the better - when I was down to two from three, after the first one died, it went all to pot. The one I'm rehoming became agressive, and previously he'd had his spats with the smaller one, but they were matched, and he had his spats with the larger one, but that guy was in charge. Hopefully with three/four other Clowns, he'll find his niche.
ShinySideUp
Fish Herder
I have seven, they have no spats...well, mostly not 
When I had all three, the current one and the smallest had a time of the month when they'd flare their fins at one another and fight. They got on fairly well the rest of the time. The current one used to fight the largest for food at times.
ShinySideUp
Fish Herder
Every time I feed the Clown's I drop in seven pellets at the same time, this means they get one each and they head of with their prize into separate areas of the tank to eat. Once they've gone, I drop in the rest of the food so that all the other bottom feeders get their fair share. The Clown's soon come back but then they have to scavenge along with everyone else; it's a routine but it seems to work.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
The will spar until an order is established. After that it is rare that anyone but the next fish down will challenge any given place in the pecking order. Fish that are closer in size will test again every now and then just in case things have changed. They will lip lock a lot and chase each other around the tank. And then it all settles down again for a while. I do not think I have ever seen any of mine pull out their switchblades (subocular spines).
My largest/oldest clown has been with me since 2002 and it was about 4 inches when it was given to me. I am guessing it is about 15 years old now.
My largest/oldest clown has been with me since 2002 and it was about 4 inches when it was given to me. I am guessing it is about 15 years old now.
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