Ask Questions About Cycling

[eaglesaquarium]

Check your nitrates.  
 
Bringing established media, gunk, decorations, etc. means that you are likely bringing the same ratio of A-bacs and N-bacs, as you need to process ammonia and nitrite.   (A grossly misrepresentative set of numbers... let's say that to process 1 ppm ammonia to nitrate requires 10 million A-bacs, and 20 million N-bacs... then your additions may have had a 1:2 A-bac to N-bac ratio and as a result, each 0.1ppm ammonia that is processed each 24 hours to nitrite is also 'immediately' processed to nitrate.)
 
 
So, whatever the A-bacs process, might also be processing the nitrite produced immediately, so you don't see the nitrite.  If your nitrate is rising (although its not a very reliable test for specific numbers) it indicates that's the case.
 
 
Either way, you are still looking for the same end point - ammonia being fully processed within 24 hours, from ammonia to nitrate.
 
 
It appears that your current set-up is processing somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.5-1 ppm per day of ammonia.
 
Let's say July 12 was about 3.5 ppm.
July 14 was closer to 2 ppm than 1ppm.
(That means that you processed about 1.5 ppm in 2 days, roughly 0.75 ppm per day.)
 
Added ammonia back to 3 ppm, but possibly a bit higher again.
July 17 about 1ppm, maybe 1.5.
July 18 about 0.5 ppm.
 
So, in the 3 days between July 14 and 18, you processed about 2.5 ppm, roughly 0.8ppm per day... give or take.
 
The odd part about that is that generally, the bacteria will roughly double every 24 hours... BUT, moving from one tank to another can impact that and disrupt their biofilms a bit, so it could be a bit slower for a while.
 
 
Keep updating and we can confirm where this is heading.  I'd add a snack dose of 1ppm now and check again in 24 hours.  

 

[carmstrong]

Check your nitrates.  
 
Bringing established media, gunk, decorations, etc. means that you are likely bringing the same ratio of A-bacs and N-bacs, as you need to process ammonia and nitrite.   (A grossly misrepresentative set of numbers... let's say that to process 1 ppm ammonia to nitrate requires 10 million A-bacs, and 20 million N-bacs... then your additions may have had a 1:2 A-bac to N-bac ratio and as a result, each 0.1ppm ammonia that is processed each 24 hours to nitrite is also 'immediately' processed to nitrate.)
 
 
So, whatever the A-bacs process, might also be processing the nitrite produced immediately, so you don't see the nitrite.  If your nitrate is rising (although its not a very reliable test for specific numbers) it indicates that's the case.
 
 
Either way, you are still looking for the same end point - ammonia being fully processed within 24 hours, from ammonia to nitrate.
 
 
It appears that your current set-up is processing somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.5-1 ppm per day of ammonia.
 
Let's say July 12 was about 3.5 ppm.
July 14 was closer to 2 ppm than 1ppm.
(That means that you processed about 1.5 ppm in 2 days, roughly 0.75 ppm per day.)
 
Added ammonia back to 3 ppm, but possibly a bit higher again.
July 17 about 1ppm, maybe 1.5.
July 18 about 0.5 ppm.
 
So, in the 3 days between July 14 and 18, you processed about 2.5 ppm, roughly 0.8ppm per day... give or take.
 
The odd part about that is that generally, the bacteria will roughly double every 24 hours... BUT, moving from one tank to another can impact that and disrupt their biofilms a bit, so it could be a bit slower for a while.
 
 
Keep updating and we can confirm where this is heading.  I'd add a snack dose of 1ppm now and check again in 24 hours.  

 
Thanks! i'll check my Nitrates first and then add a snack dose and see what happens tomorrow.
 
I'll keep you all posted!

 

[Ch4rlie]

A little point I'd like to mention, do be sure to do the nitrate tests to the letter and THOROUGHLY shake the bottles of reagent solutions.
 
Ensure the test tube is clean, and take a sample of water at least two inches below the water surface so you aviod any containments of anything on water surface.
 
The nitrate test is actually the least accurate of the three main test of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
 
So using the nitrate readings as a guidline its fine in that respect.
 
I am aware you probably knew of this already but mentioning this helps for those who may not be already aware.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You should be getting some nitrite readings as long you you have a residual ammonia reading after 24 hours from having added ammonia. You keep showing ammonia but 0 nitrite. Something is wrong here.
 
The use of either cycled items from established tanks, and/or viable bottled bacteria will change the whole way the cycling process progresses. This is because you have both types of the needed bacteria present from the start. However, when using only things from an established tank, there is no way to know the amount of "cycling power" has been added. The only way to know is by adding ammonia and doing the appropriate testing. The only thing we can know is what eagle pointed out, that both bacs are found together in close proximity inside the biofilm. This means whatever ammonia that can be processed, so too should whatever nitrite that becomes.
 
The result is that when one adds a dose pf ammonia to a tank seeded from other tanks, we know that if it cannot process 100% of an ammonia dose, then it cannot process the amount of nitrite created by that ammonia dose either. And this means one should see a nitrite reading. The fact that you report none makes me feel that there is something amiss in what you have reported. Unless you have live plants in your tank, there is no explanation for your results I can see.
 
That snack dose is added because there is lack of ammonia for a while in a tank but there are still decent levels of nitrite. While waiting for the slower reproducing nitrite bacs to increase, that snack feed the ammonia bacs. Because it is a snack and not a full dose, it wont significantly impact nitrite levels.
 
Here is the basic math/chemistry:
- 3 ppm of ammonia added to a tank can become 7.65 ppm or so of nitrite- since you feel you had over 3 but under 4 ppm lets call it 3.5 and this makes almost 9 ppm of nitrite.
- 2 days after adding 3.5 ppm of ammonia you test and report 1 ppm of ammonia and 0 of nitrite. This is not possible. If there is still residual ammonia (the 1 ppm you report), there must also be some amount of nitrite. For there not to be would require more nitrite processing capacity than there is for ammonia. Very hard to have happen.
- Ammonia bacs double faster than the nitrite ones. Figure about 12 hours for the ammonia ones and 18+ for the nitrite ones (in a lab setting it goes faster and in the least optimal conditions it can take noticeably longer). But what makes either of them reproduce is an excess of ammonia or nitrite i.e more than they need. If one has an ammonia reading after 24 hours, it means that there are not enough A bacs to handle that level of ammonia and that should also mean there are insufficient N bacs to process the nitrite those A bacs can produce. (This is due to the differing reproductive rates)
- Plants use ammonia and do not create nitrite. So in planted tanks ammonia can be processed by them. This also means nitrite levels will not reflect the amount of ammonia processed.
- Some dechlors can cause false ammonia readings because they contain an ammonia detoxifier (ammonia detoxifiers themselves can also do this). Depending on which one, this can last from about 24 hours or until it is used up or removed via a water change.
 
Something is missing or inaccurate in what you have reported. So a few Qs-
 

• What dechlor do you use?
• Do you use anything for detoxifying ammonia? If so, what.
• What test kits are you using?
• How do you test. From the moment you begin until you have a reading, report the steps you take. Assuming you are using liquid test kits, from the moment you start please list the exact process you follow including the last thing you do before storing the equipment. Include every detail no matter how unimportant it may seem to you.
• List any chemicals or additives you use beside dechlor and/or ammonia detoxifiers.

 

[carmstrong]

Hey guys/gals..

I did a reading once I got home, the nitrate reading was 5ppm
Didn't have time to do a nitrite or ammonia test.
I did a 1cc dose of ammonia.

I have no conditioners in the tank.

No detoxifiers for the ammonia

Test kit is API Freshwater kit (liquid)

Test kit procedure: (this is going to sound sarcastic)
Open package
Grab vials
Vials were dried open from the test before
Placed 5oz of water(to the line)
Ammonia test, placed 8 drops of bottle #1 into the vial.
Shook vial for 5 secs
Added 8 drops of bottle #2 into vial
Shake for 5 secs
Let sit for 5 mins
Nitrite test
Add 5ml to vial
Add 10 drops to vial
Shake for 5 secs
let sit for 5 mins

Not sure what else to tell you..

Will let you know tests tomorrow

Thank you for all your help

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Re testing-
Do you take the water from well below the surface?
Do you rinse the vial and lid once in tank water before taking the actual sample?
Do you put the cap on the vial before shaking?
 
Re Nitrate-
Again this defies the chemistry and the math: 1 ppm of ammonia produces 2.55 ppm of nitrite and that in turn makes 3.46 ppm of nitrate using the total ion scale typically used by most hobby test kits. API kits use this scale. Your initial 3.5 ppm of ammonia should create over 12 ppm of nitrate. And then there is the 2 ppm top off you did which means another close to 7 ppm of nitrate. Most if not all of this you reported as processed. So your tank should have created about 18-20 ppm of nitrate. But then again that test is not great to start with and it is least accurate between 0 and 20 ppm.
 
When you say no conditioners are added, do you mean you do not dechlorinate your water? If not, why not?

 

[carmstrong]

Re testing-
Do you take the water from well below the surface?
Do you rinse the vial and lid once in tank water before taking the actual sample?
Do you put the cap on the vial before shaking?
 
Re Nitrate-
Again this defies the chemistry and the math: 1 ppm of ammonia produces 2.55 ppm of nitrite and that in turn makes 3.46 ppm of nitrate using the total ion scale typically used by most hobby test kits. API kits use this scale. Your initial 3.5 ppm of ammonia should create over 12 ppm of nitrate. And then there is the 2 ppm top off you did which means another close to 7 ppm of nitrate. Most if not all of this you reported as processed. So your tank should have created about 18-20 ppm of nitrate. But then again that test is not great to start with and it is least accurate between 0 and 20 ppm.
 
When you say no conditioners are added, do you mean you do not dechlorinate your water? If not, why not?

 
Hey TTA, 
 
As for water from the surface, yes.. i've been taking it from there, so this time I took it from the middle and am awaiting results. 
 
No, i've never rinsed the vial in tank water before sampling, never thought of that.. will try it 
 
Yes, use the cap for shaking, not my finger.
 
As for conditioners, yes I use a water conditioner, API Stress Coat I just haven't placed it in this tank yet.
 
I'll try another test with rinsing the vial in tank water before and using water from the middle not the surface.. 
 
be right back

 

[carmstrong]

ok, took another reading.. 
 
Rinsed the vial in tank water, after rinsing it in tap water. 
 
Shook the bottles "to death" and did the usual testing
 
its been 5 mins, readings are
Ammonia 0.5ppm (almost looks like 0.25ppm)
Nitrite 0ppm
 
I did a dose of 1cc (literally with a syringe) at 1:30pm today (its now 9:20pm)
 
Any thoughts?

 

[carmstrong]

Update:
 
Speaking with Eagle on chat we realized that my cycle is on track and that the lack of nitrite is a fluke.. 
 
I was below .25ppm in ammonia and my nitrate was 40-80ppm
 
I did a full dose and will keep you posted on the results 24hrs from now. 
 
Thank you all for your help! 
 
One step closer..

 

[Essjay]

Test kit is API Freshwater kit (liquid)

Test kit procedure: (this is going to sound sarcastic)
Open package
Grab vials
Vials were dried open from the test before

Nitrite test
Add 5ml to vial
Add 10 drops to vial
Shake for 5 secs
let sit for 5 mins

 

 
 
One thing that stands out to me is that you say you add 10 drops from the nitrite bottle. Is this a typo (as nitrAte says to add 10 from each bottle) or do you really add 10 drops. The instructions with my API nitrite tester say to add 5 drops.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

One thing that stands out to me is that you say you add 10 drops from the nitrite bottle. Is this a typo (as nitrAte says to add 10 from each bottle) or do you really add 10 drops. The instructions with my API nitrite tester say to add 5 drops.

 
Wow.  Great catch.

 

[carmstrong]

Good Morning,
Yes, that was a typo. I was at a friends when responded and could not remember the drops.

Ammonia is 8 each bottle
Nitrite is 5
Nitrate is 10 drops

Thank you for pointing that out

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Good Morning,
Yes, that was a typo. I was at a friends when responded and could not remember the drops.

Ammonia is 8 each bottle
Nitrite is 5
Nitrate is 10 drops

Thank you for pointing that out

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Your nitrate reading makes a bit more sense now. At 5 ppm it was way to little which was indicating that nitrite was not being converted to nitrate. that was indicating there were not sufficient nitrite bacs and that in turn should mean you see nitrite readings.
 
I am not sure what a "fluke" is. I was looking for testing errors since the results were not what I would normally expect.
 
Finally, the cycling article here is written based on two conditions: there are very few or no live plants in a tank and that no form of bacterial seeding is being done. When either or both of these conditions are not this way, everything changes. This means both one's test levels and the time frames involved will not follow those in the article. What I should do is to write an article which deals with cycling when live plants and/or seeding is involved. The difficulty here is that, in most cases, the variables are way too many to cover them all with the same precision. The best one can do is offer guidelines and explanations that help one assess things to know what is going on.
 
However, one major aid to understanding what is going on during the tank setup/cycling phase is the keeping of accurate records on everything. What are the tap and tank parameters, what is in the tank, what chemicals are added and when, how and when is the testing done etc. Cycling is a process which follows a course based on the biology and chemistry involved. Everything is interrelated.
 
Incidentally, the reason for taking the test water from deeper down in a tank is because things can accumulate on the surface that can interfere with the test results. The reason for rinsing well in different ways is to minimize contamination. Working with 5 ml of water means it takes very little contamination to affect results. By rinsing the vial and cap in tank water before taking the sample insures minimal bias from anything the tap rinse after the last test may have left behind. The reason for rinsing in tap after testing is to remove any residual chemicals from the vial and the cap.

 

[carmstrong]

Ammonia update from 24hrs ago..

Reading is 2ppm from 4ppm (full dose of 4oz)

Will test again in 24hrs